美国国家公共电台 NPR 'On Tyranny' Explores New Threats Facing American Political System

ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:

Timothy Snyder has written some sprawling¹, compelling books about war, genocide and the descent into dictatorship in mid-20th century Europe. So the Yale historian's latest book called "On Tyranny" is a departure. It is a slim, almost pocket-sized work subtitled "Twenty Lessons From The Twentieth Century." Snyder writes out of concern about the rise of Donald Trump², and his lessons range from such personal instruction as stand out and establish a private life to more common political fare like listen for dangerous words and beware of paramilitaries. Timothy Snyder joins us in the studio. Thanks for coming in.

TIMOTHY SNYDER: I'm very glad.

SIEGEL: Why did you write this book?

SNYDER: Well, you just called it a departure. I would call it an arrival, an arrival back into the United States. I'm an American, but I'm not a historian of the United States. I'm a historian of Eastern and central Europe. So I've spent the last 25 years writing, as you say, these books about how regimes change and about how political atrocities³ are committed. So this is the first time that I'm writing about America. And I feel compelled to do so because I'm afraid things can change here very fast.

SIEGEL: Do you find in Donald Trump's nationalism alarming parallels with things you've written about in Europe - fascism, Stalinism?

SNYDER: I guess the place to start is that America's not an exception. The myths that we tell about ourselves are not true. We're not wiser than Germans in the 1930s. So I can't say for sure which way things are going, but what I do know is that our institutions don't defend themselves. The institutions only make it when people themselves do the little things that they can do as individuals. So - but to answer your question briefly⁴, I am concerned about regime change in the United States, yes.

SIEGEL: Let me put to you what might be a less-than-alarming interpretation⁵ of the Trump presidency⁶. There's no uniformed youth movement behind it. It's not a political party of its own. Donald Trump sees the leadership of a party, which frankly⁷ isn't entirely⁸ on board with him. Fascism requires both fascist⁹ leaders and fascist followers¹⁰, and the followers just aren't following. That would be - that would be an alarming view of things.

SNYDER: But what it wouldn't be, Robert, is an argument for doing nothing. We're in a shocking situation where there are far more negative things that one could also cite, like, for example, that the president basically never says he supports democracy. The president has never given any indication that he understands or respects the rule of law and the things that the presidents have done so far. And this speaks directly, I think, to the central threat, suggests that he is deliberately¹¹ spreading a world of unreality.

And this is exactly why we have to understand history, because where fascism, to use your word, begins is with the neglect or the repudiation¹² of the real world. Fascism says what you and I experience as facts or what reporters experience as facts are irrelevant¹³. All that matters are impressions and emotions and myths.

And so when the president and his aides set out to create a world of alternative factuality, that is the catalyst¹⁴ which helps us slide from one system to another. So yes, there are things on both sides of the balance, but I would say the very last thing we should do is look at this situation and say, oh, it's all going to be fine.

SIEGEL: Trump aides in response to the allegation of their generating fake news would say, no, the mainstream¹⁵ journalists are totally against Donald Trump. They're going with unsourced or unnamed sources in stories that are more argumentative than expository. And in fact, we are setting a wildly inaccurate¹⁶ record straight.

SNYDER: In the descent from a world of factual discourse¹⁷ into a world of emotions and alternative realities, the first step you take, whether you're the Russian media, whether you're Breitbart is that you manufacture lots of stuff that isn't true. The second step is that you claim that everyone is like this. You spread this kind of cynicism that you shouldn't really trust anybody, everybody's just a partisan¹⁸, everyone just has their own skin in the game. And then once that belief spreads we're then in the world that I'm talking about, which is ripe for fascism.

SIEGEL: One of your lessons is to establish a private life. And in talking about privacy, you cite the hack¹⁹ of Hillary Clinton's email or of John Podesta's email, perhaps more directly, as an example of an invasion of privacy. You criticize the media for covering that as news. You know, I - when that hack took place there had been demands from the primary season for Hillary Clinton to divulge²⁰ the transcripts²¹ of her speeches to Goldman Sachs. I found the transcripts of her - they're actually sort of public conversations with Goldman Sachs - and I read them. I thereby²² took part in what I guess was indirectly²³ an invasion of her or John Podesta's privacy. Am I wrong to do that?

SNYDER: Yeah. I mean, you may be - you may be obligated to do it the way that sometimes doctors and lawyers are obligated to do things, but I think you should feel bad about it. And it goes back to your question about fascism. Sometimes things happen that we don't understand are threats. And this was one of them. So let's use a big word, totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is not about some state that appears out of nowhere and suddenly is all-powerful. There can't be any such thing. Totalitarianism starts when the difference between your public life and your private life is effaced²⁴. If we can't have exchanges with our friends and family, with loved ones that won't at some point be made public then we can't have private lives. And if we can't have private lives then we're not really free people.

SIEGEL: Although what I learned from reading the transcripts of these interviews that she gave for people who worked for Goldman Sachs was that number one, she was incredibly fluent and fast on her feet, talking about China and other issues of foreign policy. Number two, it wasn't as if she was in the belly²⁵ of the beast, scolding her hosts, which had been implied earlier in the primary season. She was in her element. And I thought reading those transcripts may have been an invasion of someone's privacy, but it was due diligence on my part.

SNYDER: I think as a reporter, perhaps you had to do it since everyone else was doing it. But I think we have to have some rules, just like there - with a doctor there's patient confidentiality²⁶ or with a lawyer there's confidentiality because it can't be right, Robert, that every time someone hacks²⁷ my emails it's news for someone else.

SIEGEL: Did you write this for young people, for young liberal people? How would you describe your readership?

SNYDER: So this is a book for all Americans. It is, though, as you suggest quite rightly, slightly more a book for the young because what I fear we've done in this country is raise a generation of young people under the slogan that history was over, that things are basically going in the right direction and always will. And now many of those young people have been delivered a shock. And the danger is that having been shocked they will switch from thinking, oh, well, everything's going to be fine to everything's not going to be fine and not realize that history is precisely²⁸ about what you yourself can do. People in their 20s have a chance to be a historical generation. I hope they take it.

SIEGEL: Timothy Snyder, thank you very much.

SNYDER: Hey, it's been my pleasure.

SIEGEL: Timothy Snyder is the author of "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons From The Twentieth Century."

(SOUNDBITE OF CYMANDE SONG, "ONE MORE")

 

1 sprawling   

adj.蔓生的，不规则地伸展的v.伸开四肢坐[躺]( sprawl的现在分词 )；蔓延；杂乱无序地拓展；四肢伸展坐着（或躺着）

参考例句：

• He was sprawling in an armchair in front of the TV. 他伸开手脚坐在电视机前的一张扶手椅上。
• a modern sprawling town 一座杂乱无序拓展的现代城镇

2 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

3 atrocities   

n.邪恶，暴行( atrocity的名词复数 )；滔天大罪

参考例句：

• They were guilty of the most barbarous and inhuman atrocities. 他们犯有最野蛮、最灭绝人性的残暴罪行。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The enemy's atrocities made one boil with anger. 敌人的暴行令人发指。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

4 briefly   

adv.简单地，简短地

参考例句：

• I want to touch briefly on another aspect of the problem.我想简单地谈一下这个问题的另一方面。
• He was kidnapped and briefly detained by a terrorist group.他被一个恐怖组织绑架并短暂拘禁。

5 interpretation   

n.解释，说明，描述；艺术处理

参考例句：

• His statement admits of one interpretation only.他的话只有一种解释。
• Analysis and interpretation is a very personal thing.分析与说明是个很主观的事情。

6 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

7 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

8 entirely   

ad.全部地，完整地；完全地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The fire was entirely caused by their neglect of duty. 那场火灾完全是由于他们失职而引起的。
• His life was entirely given up to the educational work. 他的一生统统献给了教育工作。

9 fascist   

adj.法西斯主义的；法西斯党的；n.法西斯主义者，法西斯分子

参考例句：

• The strikers were roughed up by the fascist cops.罢工工人遭到法西斯警察的殴打。
• They succeeded in overthrowing the fascist dictatorship.他们成功推翻了法西斯独裁统治。

10 followers   

追随者( follower的名词复数 )； 用户； 契据的附面； 从动件

参考例句：

• the followers of Mahatma Gandhi 圣雄甘地的拥护者
• The reformer soon gathered a band of followers round him. 改革者很快就获得一群追随者支持他。

11 deliberately   

adv.审慎地；蓄意地；故意地

参考例句：

• The girl gave the show away deliberately.女孩故意泄露秘密。
• They deliberately shifted off the argument.他们故意回避这个论点。

12 repudiation   

n.拒绝；否认；断绝关系；抛弃

参考例句：

• Datas non-repudiation is very important in the secure communication. 在安全数据的通讯中，数据发送和接收的非否认十分重要。 来自互联网
• There are some goals of Certified E-mail Protocol: confidentiality non-repudiation and fairness. 挂号电子邮件协议需要具备保密性、不可否认性及公平性。 来自互联网

13 irrelevant   

adj.不恰当的，无关系的，不相干的

参考例句：

• That is completely irrelevant to the subject under discussion.这跟讨论的主题完全不相关。
• A question about arithmetic is irrelevant in a music lesson.在音乐课上，一个数学的问题是风马牛不相及的。

14 catalyst   

n.催化剂，造成变化的人或事

参考例句：

• A catalyst is a substance which speeds up a chemical reaction.催化剂是一种能加速化学反应的物质。
• The workers'demand for better conditions was a catalyst for social change.工人们要求改善工作条件促进了社会变革。

15 mainstream   

n.（思想或行为的）主流；adj.主流的

参考例句：

• Their views lie outside the mainstream of current medical opinion.他们的观点不属于当今医学界观点的主流。
• Polls are still largely reflects the mainstream sentiment.民调还在很大程度上反映了社会主流情绪。

16 inaccurate   

adj.错误的，不正确的，不准确的

参考例句：

• The book is both inaccurate and exaggerated.这本书不但不准确，而且夸大其词。
• She never knows the right time because her watch is inaccurate.她从来不知道准确的时间因为她的表不准。

17 discourse   

n.论文，演说；谈话；话语；vi.讲述，著述

参考例句：

• We'll discourse on the subject tonight.我们今晚要谈论这个问题。
• He fell into discourse with the customers who were drinking at the counter.他和站在柜台旁的酒客谈了起来。

18 partisan   

adj.党派性的；游击队的；n.游击队员；党徒

参考例句：

• In their anger they forget all the partisan quarrels.愤怒之中，他们忘掉一切党派之争。
• The numerous newly created partisan detachments began working slowly towards that region.许多新建的游击队都开始慢慢地向那里移动。

19 hack   

n.劈，砍，出租马车；v.劈，砍，干咳

参考例句：

• He made a hack at the log.他朝圆木上砍了一下。
• Early settlers had to hack out a clearing in the forest where they could grow crops.早期移民不得不在森林里劈出空地种庄稼。

20 divulge   

v.泄漏(秘密等)；宣布，公布

参考例句：

• They refused to divulge where they had hidden the money.他们拒绝说出他们把钱藏在什么地方。
• He swore never to divulge the secret.他立誓决不泄露秘密。

21 transcripts   

n.抄本（ transcript的名词复数 ）；转写本；文字本；副本

参考例句：

• Like mRNA, both tRNA and rRNA are transcripts of chromosomal DNA. tRNA及rRNA同mRNA一样，都是染色体DNA的转录产物。 来自辞典例句
• You can't take the transfer students'exam without your transcripts. 没有成绩证明书，你就不能参加转学考试。 来自辞典例句

22 thereby   

adv.因此，从而

参考例句：

• I have never been to that city,,ereby I don't know much about it.我从未去过那座城市，因此对它不怎么熟悉。
• He became a British citizen,thereby gaining the right to vote.他成了英国公民，因而得到了投票权。

23 indirectly   

adv.间接地，不直接了当地

参考例句：

• I heard the news indirectly.这消息我是间接听来的。
• They were approached indirectly through an intermediary.通过一位中间人，他们进行了间接接触。

24 effaced   

v.擦掉( efface的过去式和过去分词 )；抹去；超越；使黯然失色

参考例句：

• Someone has effaced part of the address on his letter. 有人把他信上的一部分地址擦掉了。 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》
• The name of the ship had been effaced from the menus. 那艘船的名字已经从菜单中删除了。 来自辞典例句

25 belly   

n.肚子，腹部；(像肚子一样)鼓起的部分，膛

参考例句：

• The boss has a large belly.老板大腹便便。
• His eyes are bigger than his belly.他眼馋肚饱。

26 confidentiality   

n.秘而不宣，保密

参考例句：

• They signed a confidentiality agreement. 他们签署了一份保守机密的协议。
• Cryptography is the foundation of supporting authentication, integrality and confidentiality. 而密码学是支持认证、完整性和机密性机制的基础。

27 hacks   

黑客

参考例句：

• But there are hacks who take advantage of people like Teddy. 但有些无赖会占类似泰迪的人的便宜。 来自电影对白
• I want those two hacks back here, right now. 我要那两个雇工回到这儿，现在就回。 来自互联网

28 precisely   

adv.恰好，正好，精确地，细致地

参考例句：

• It's precisely that sort of slick sales-talk that I mistrust.我不相信的正是那种油腔滑调的推销宣传。
• The man adjusted very precisely.那个人调得很准。