美国国家公共电台 NPR How 'Fire And Fury' Could Change The Politics Of The Trump Administration

 

ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:

Right now, joining me for our Friday politics talk are columnist¹ E.J. Dionne of The Washington Post and the Brookings Institution and David Brooks² of The New York Times. Hi, both of you. Good to see you.

DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE³: Hello.

E J DIONNE, BYLINE: Good to be with you.

SIEGEL: We'll get to some personal matters in a moment. But first, to follow up on what we've heard from Tam - a public split between Donald Trump⁴ and Steve Bannon. There also are reports of a Russia investigation⁵ that's turning up more problems for people close to Donald Trump, if not Trump himself. David, even by the standards of weeks in the time of President Donald Trump, does this one stand out as an especially newsworthy one?

BROOKS: Yeah. First of all, E.J. and I have agreed to precede our comments with an agreement that working with you in the past 18 years has been one of the great privileges of our career and that you're not only a good host, intelligent and curious, but you've exemplified what good citizenship⁶ should be like.

DIONNE: And David and I completely agree on this.

(LAUGHTER)

DIONNE: You said once that you speak...

SIEGEL: We don't like it when you agree this much.

BROOKS: (Laughter).

DIONNE: I know. Well, that's...

SIEGEL: Yeah, yeah.

DIONNE: Well, we'll get to disagreement.

SIEGEL: All right.

DIONNE: But you've said - you said once that you speak to listeners as people you feel close to and whose intelligence you respect, and that's why you have hundreds of thousands of intelligent friends around the country, all your listeners there who love and respect - Robert, you have never been so right about anything. You are a wise man and a mensch, and we will miss you.

SIEGEL: Well, I - thank you. I'm very proud to count you both as colleagues and as friends as well. And now onto Donald Trump.

(LAUGHTER)

SIEGEL: David...

BROOKS: So from the sublime⁷ to the ridiculous.

SIEGEL: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: You know, I first have worries about this whole episode. Michael Wolff does not operate by the standards that prevail at The New York Times, The Washington Post, at NPR. And I worry that we're lowering our standards because we find it salacious and gossipy. I think this book has some things that are probably accurate - probably the quotes - a lot of things that are probably fictional⁸. And we're - our state in the American public opinion is so precarious⁹. I worry about us becoming even more delegitimized by simply baying to this guy.

I think the quotes are probably right, and the split between Trump and Bannon is certainly right. And to me, that's the most significant thing to come out of this. And I have to say I have the minority view on this. Everyone thinks Bannon is finished.

SIEGEL: Yeah.

BROOKS: But Bannonism, populism has real roots in this country. Trumpism, a billionaire narcissist¹⁰, has no roots. So I do not think - I think in the long run, Bannonism or something like it will outlast¹¹ Trumpism.

SIEGEL: E.J.?

DIONNE: I want to make you happy by beginning by disagreeing with David.

SIEGEL: (Laughter).

DIONNE: I disagree with him on what Michael Wolff did here. Yes, his methods are different. The real test is, is the picture he has painted of Trump's White House accurate or not? And almost anyone I have heard from mainstream¹² journalism¹³ who has been covering the White House says broadly speaking, this is the chaos¹⁴ that is going on in there; this is the Donald Trump that they have often heard about off the record and the flaws he has brought out. And so I think, you know, there are - yes, David and I have different journalistic histories and methods. But he has sort of ended denial I think about the Trump presidency¹⁵ that I think is useful.

I do agree that populism of a Bannon sort is still out there, but even that I think has been undercut by Trump because what he's done is - he has - I think he's let down a lot of those white, working-class voters we have talked about so much. His tax cut is not popular. He's done very few things for them. It is, by the way, one of the reasons why Steve Bannon was against this tax cut. He understood the damage...

SIEGEL: Yeah.

DIONNE: ...It would do to this base.

SIEGEL: I mean, David, you've said all along that what you now speak of as Bannonism - it has some contours to it. It is a set of ideas. It's not just running on the fumes¹⁶ of Reaganism from...

BROOKS: Yeah. And I've said before that Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question. And what Bannon, the populist - who - whether it was Pat Buchanan, Bannon, whoever is the future iteration - disbelief in the post-war world order with America, you know, actively¹⁷ engaged around the world - the disbelief in globalization, a sense that the elites¹⁸ are corrupt¹⁹ and detached from regular people - all those things are real sentiments, and Donald Trump does not answer to them. And we are guaranteed in part because of the tax bill that there'll be even more alienation²⁰ of the working class in the next election, which will show up one way or another.

SIEGEL: E.J., let me ask you about the Democrats²¹. There's lots of talk these days about polls and other measures of enthusiasm, how many people are signing up to run for office that suggest there's a Democratic wave election coming up in November. Is this kind of talk - is it realistic? Are Democrats getting overconfident about the gains they're going to make in Congress? It's the same country that went to the polls in 2016, same districts.

DIONNE: I think after the 2016 election, Democrats will never get overconfident about anything. The question is, is any of this stuff rooted in reality? And I think we've seen two sets of realities or two realities already - one, the elections in November in Virginia and in New Jersey²² but all over the country where Democrats boasted these enormous gains. And then, yes, it was a peculiar²³ circumstance, but we saw Alabama. What I think gives us reason to think a wave is coming - and it's still a long way away...

SIEGEL: Yeah.

DIONNE: ...Is that Democrats seem enthusiastic to vote against Trump. They seem mobilized. This is like the electorates²⁴ of 2006, 2010 and 2014, an electorate²⁵ that seems eager to rebuke²⁶ the...

SIEGEL: Yeah.

DIONNE: ...President who's in office.

SIEGEL: But David, I mean, it's hard to imagine other really red states like Alabama suddenly electing Democrats in 2018 because of Donald Trump.

BROOKS: But, you know, the Democrats have this huge party advantage ID. My imagination isn't big enough to figure out how the Democrats are going to mess this up.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: But somehow I'm sure they will. You know, I think the bigger trend is the collapse²⁷ of both parties. I do think we've seen this around Europe and around the world that major parties are in disarray²⁸, the Republicans in clear collapse. The Democrats will probably have a good year. But the underlying²⁹ splits I do think are real, and the leftward drift and the collapse of the center - that's a real fact of the Democratic Party.

SIEGEL: You know, it's surprising because thinking back on all the years that I've been hosting the program leading up to tonight, my last show today, 30 years ago, the political parties in America really weren't coherent. There were these odd patchworks of, you know, rock-ribbed Midwestern Republicans and Northeastern liberal Republicans and progressives from the Pacific Northwest. The Democrats had past segregationists and still segregationist³⁰ mixed up with Northern liberals. The parties make more sense now. I mean, they're more coherent. It's just the politics that comes of their attempting to work together makes less sense.

BROOKS: But think about how bad a period - 30 years ago, the Soviet³¹ Union was beginning its collapse. The wall was about to fall.

SIEGEL: Yep.

BROOKS: We thought we were in the advance of civil liberal democracy. It's pretty much been downhill (laughter) ever since. And so that to me is the major trend - the collapse of what we thought was an advance of liberal democracy, a move to the center, and we're all going to have free democracies. That's not happening, and a lot of people are upset - legitimately³² upset about it.

DIONNE: Small-D democrats have a lot of work to do around the world. But I am so struck with what you said, Robert, because I think it was in 1950 or '51 the American Political Science Association put out a paper, "Toward A More Responsible Party System" (ph) that said we needed a more ideologically³³...

SIEGEL: Right, right.

DIONNE: ...Philosophically³⁴ coherent set of parties. And look what we got out of it. And so I actually think that a lot of political scientists are rethinking this, and we're asking the question, would we do a little better with parties that were slightly more diverse than they are now? They are diverse but in rather peculiar ways and in ways that aren't yet functional³⁵ for us.

SIEGEL: It is almost 18 years since we imposed this marriage on the two of you. I've been the moderator very often, and I just wanted to thank the two of you for so many thought-provoking conversations about politics over the years. E.J. Dionne and David Brooks, thanks.

BROOKS: And a great honor - thank you, Robert.

DIONNE: One of the greatest joys of my journalistic life. Bless you, Robert.

1 columnist   

n.专栏作家

参考例句：

• The host was interviewing a local columnist.节目主持人正在同一位当地的专栏作家交谈。
• She's a columnist for USA Today.她是《今日美国报》的专栏作家。

2 brooks   

n.小溪( brook的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Brooks gave the business when Haas caught him with his watch. 哈斯抓到偷他的手表的布鲁克斯时，狠狠地揍了他一顿。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Ade and Brooks exchanged blows yesterday and they were severely punished today. 艾德和布鲁克斯昨天打起来了，今天他们受到严厉的惩罚。 来自《简明英汉词典》

3 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

4 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

5 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

6 citizenship   

n.市民权，公民权，国民的义务(身份)

参考例句：

• He was born in Sweden,but he doesn't have Swedish citizenship.他在瑞典出生，但没有瑞典公民身分。
• Ten years later,she chose to take Australian citizenship.十年后，她选择了澳大利亚国籍。

7 sublime   

adj.崇高的，伟大的；极度的，不顾后果的

参考例句：

• We should take some time to enjoy the sublime beauty of nature.我们应该花些时间去欣赏大自然的壮丽景象。
• Olympic games play as an important arena to exhibit the sublime idea.奥运会，就是展示此崇高理念的重要舞台。

8 fictional   

adj.小说的，虚构的

参考例句：

• The names of the shops are entirely fictional.那些商店的名字完全是虚构的。
• The two authors represent the opposite poles of fictional genius.这两位作者代表了天才小说家两个极端。

9 precarious   

adj.不安定的，靠不住的；根据不足的

参考例句：

• Our financial situation had become precarious.我们的财务状况已变得不稳定了。
• He earned a precarious living as an artist.作为一个艺术家，他过得是朝不保夕的生活。

10 narcissist   

n.自我陶醉者

参考例句：

• Don't get caught in the trap of always trying to please a narcissist. 不要让自己一直陷入讨好自恋者的困境中。 来自互联网

11 outlast   

v.较…耐久

参考例句：

• The great use of life is to spend it doing something that will outlast it.人生的充分利用就是为争取比人生更长久的东西而度过一生。
• These naturally dried flowers will outlast a bouquet of fresh blooms.这些自然风干的花会比一束鲜花更加持久。

12 mainstream   

n.（思想或行为的）主流；adj.主流的

参考例句：

• Their views lie outside the mainstream of current medical opinion.他们的观点不属于当今医学界观点的主流。
• Polls are still largely reflects the mainstream sentiment.民调还在很大程度上反映了社会主流情绪。

13 journalism   

n.新闻工作，报业

参考例句：

• He's a teacher but he does some journalism on the side.他是教师，可还兼职做一些新闻工作。
• He had an aptitude for journalism.他有从事新闻工作的才能。

14 chaos   

n.混乱，无秩序

参考例句：

• After the failure of electricity supply the city was in chaos.停电后，城市一片混乱。
• The typhoon left chaos behind it.台风后一片混乱。

15 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

16 fumes   

n.(强烈而刺激的)气味，气体

参考例句：

• The health of our children is being endangered by exhaust fumes. 我们孩子们的健康正受到排放出的废气的损害。
• Exhaust fumes are bad for your health. 废气对健康有害。

17 actively   

adv.积极地，勤奋地

参考例句：

• During this period all the students were actively participating.在这节课中所有的学生都积极参加。
• We are actively intervening to settle a quarrel.我们正在积极调解争执。

18 elites   

精华( elite的名词复数 )； 精锐； 上层集团； （统称）掌权人物

参考例句：

• The elites are by their nature a factor contributing to underdevelopment. 这些上层人物天生是助长欠发达的因素。
• Elites always detest gifted and nimble outsiders. 社会名流对天赋聪明、多才多艺的局外人一向嫌恶。

19 corrupt   

v.贿赂，收买；adj.腐败的，贪污的

参考例句：

• The newspaper alleged the mayor's corrupt practices.那家报纸断言市长有舞弊行为。
• This judge is corrupt.这个法官贪污。

20 alienation   

n.疏远；离间；异化

参考例句：

• The new policy resulted in the alienation of many voters.新政策导致许多选民疏远了。
• As almost every conceivable contact between human beings gets automated,the alienation index goes up.随着人与人之间几乎一切能想到的接触方式的自动化，感情疏远指数在不断上升。

21 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

22 jersey   

n.运动衫

参考例句：

• He wears a cotton jersey when he plays football.他穿运动衫踢足球。
• They were dressed alike in blue jersey and knickers.他们穿着一致，都是蓝色的运动衫和灯笼短裤。

23 peculiar   

adj.古怪的，异常的；特殊的，特有的

参考例句：

• He walks in a peculiar fashion.他走路的样子很奇特。
• He looked at me with a very peculiar expression.他用一种很奇怪的表情看着我。

24 electorates   

全体选民( electorate的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The assembly's 15 seats have electorates as small as 190. 大会的15个议席只有很少的190选民参加。
• Restricting hedge funds is something they can sell to their electorates. 限制对冲基金是他们能够向选民兜售的东西。

25 electorate   

n.全体选民；选区

参考例句：

• The government was responsible to the electorate.政府对全体选民负责。
• He has the backing of almost a quarter of the electorate.他得到了几乎1/4选民的支持。

26 rebuke   

v.指责，非难，斥责 [反]praise

参考例句：

• He had to put up with a smart rebuke from the teacher.他不得不忍受老师的严厉指责。
• Even one minute's lateness would earn a stern rebuke.哪怕迟到一分钟也将受到严厉的斥责。

27 collapse   

vi.累倒；昏倒；倒塌；塌陷

参考例句：

• The country's economy is on the verge of collapse.国家的经济已到了崩溃的边缘。
• The engineer made a complete diagnosis of the bridge's collapse.工程师对桥的倒塌做了一次彻底的调查分析。

28 disarray   

n.混乱，紊乱，凌乱

参考例句：

• His personal life fell into disarray when his wife left him.妻子离去后，他的个人生活一片混乱。
• Our plans were thrown into disarray by the rail strike.铁路罢工打乱了我们的计划。

29 underlying   

adj.在下面的，含蓄的，潜在的

参考例句：

• The underlying theme of the novel is very serious.小说隐含的主题是十分严肃的。
• This word has its underlying meaning.这个单词有它潜在的含义。

30 segregationist   

隔离主义者

参考例句：

• Recent federal action undermined the segregationist position. 近期的联邦行动消弱了隔离主义者的地位。

31 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

32 legitimately   

ad.合法地；正当地，合理地

参考例句：

• The radio is legitimately owned by the company. 该电台为这家公司所合法拥有。
• She looked for nothing save what might come legitimately and without the appearance of special favour. 她要的并不是男人们的额外恩赐，而是合法正当地得到的工作。 来自英汉文学 - 嘉莉妹妹

33 ideologically   

adv. 意识形态上地，思想上地

参考例句：

• Ideologically, they have many differences. 在思想意识上，他们之间有许多不同之处。
• He has slipped back ideologically. 他思想退步了。

34 philosophically   

adv.哲学上；富有哲理性地；贤明地；冷静地

参考例句：

• He added philosophically that one should adapt oneself to the changed conditions. 他富于哲理地补充说，一个人应该适应变化了的情况。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Harry took his rejection philosophically. 哈里达观地看待自己被拒的事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

35 functional   

adj.为实用而设计的，具备功能的，起作用的

参考例句：

• The telephone was out of order,but is functional now.电话刚才坏了，但现在可以用了。
• The furniture is not fancy,just functional.这些家具不是摆着好看的，只是为了实用。