美国国家公共电台 NPR 'People Regret What They Said To Me,' Michael Wolff Tells NPR About Trump Book

 

ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:

A storm hit Washington this week. Its name is "Fire And Fury: Inside The Trump¹ White House," a new book by journalist Michael Wolff. The reporting in the book about the first 200 days of Donald Trump's presidency² has set off a series of recriminations, denials and controversy³ that has dominated every news cycle since excerpts⁴ of the book leaked earlier this week. Our colleague Kelly McEvers spoke⁵ to Michael Wolff today.

KELLY MCEVERS, HOST:

One of the immediate⁶ fallouts of "Fire And Fury" has been a very public break between President Trump and his onetime chief strategist Steve Bannon. Shortly after the first excerpts of the book were published, President Trump issued a statement saying, Steve Bannon has nothing to do with me or my presidency. When he was fired, he not only lost his job; he lost his mind. And in an effort to stop publication of the book, the president's lawyer sent a cease and desist letter to Henry Holt, the publisher of the book, and to the book's author, Michael Wolff, who is with me now. Welcome.

MICHAEL WOLFF: Thank you.

MCEVERS: So I just want to start right off with that cease and desist letter. It says in part that there are numerous false or baseless statements in this book. And so I just want to ask you; do you stand by every single word in it?

WOLFF: One hundred percent.

MCEVERS: We have heard, you know, a spokesperson for the White House, Sarah Huckabee Sanders - said there are numerous false things in there. Thomas Barrack, who's a friend of the president, who you quote in the book calling President Trump stupid and crazy, told The New York Times he never said that. Katie Walsh, who was deputy chief of staff last year, is also challenging a quote in the book. So what do you say to these specific claims about how they were characterized in your book?

WOLFF: You know, when you write a book like this - and I wrote this over a long period of time and spoke to people over a long period of time - people regret what they said to me, what they say to any reporter who they relax with and they forget who they're talking to. And I have sympathy for that. And I think the natural response is to say, oh, my God, I didn't say it. But I will tell you they said it.

MCEVERS: Let's talk about the book itself. For the many people who still haven't read it, you write a lot about President Trump and his personality in particular, you know, talking about things like how he lacks the ability to take in third-party information and about how he's more interested in immediate gratification than sort of a longer-term game of, you know, laying down policies the way other presidents have done. How much time did you spend with the president himself?

WOLFF: You know, let me just - I just want to say something 'cause it's an interesting thing that's starting to happen...

MCEVERS: Sure.

WOLFF: ...Which I'm becoming the poster boy for taking down Donald Trump. That certainly has never been my intention. My intention was to go into the White House and to report what I saw and what I heard. I thought that from the beginning, this was going to be an extraordinary story in whatever way it went. And I had no no way of knowing what way it would go. So it was not really so much about who - my analysis of Donald Trump but the people who were closest to him, the people who had to run this White House, the people who became this White House.

MCEVERS: But just - I do need to ask the question. How much time did you spend with the president himself?

WOLFF: I have spent about three hours with the president over the course of the campaign and in the White House.

MCEVERS: One thing that you write about that has been said before but not in as much detail as you give here is that the people around Donald Trump and even Trump himself did not expect him to win the election. What was the plan if he lost?

WOLFF: I think everyone would have been vastly happier if he had lost. Donald Trump would have been the most famous man in the world. His family would have gone from mere⁷ local socialites to major international figures. Steve Bannon would have effectively run the Tea Party. It would have been great for everybody.

MCEVERS: You know, after the win, yes, people were surprised. But they're in the White House. They've got a job to do. You know, it seems like you're constantly asking this question about, like, why people are working with him. In the beginning, you say it's because they believe there's just some kind of magic - right? - like, some unique astuteness⁸ and cunning because he won - right? - 'cause he won this election. There must be some there there.

WOLFF: Let me point another curious wrinkle that none of the people who went to work for Trump in the White House knew him very well. What they know basically is that he has been elected president of the United States. And they thought, OK, it's a new day, a new kind of president, a new page. Let's make the best of this.

MCEVERS: Right and just my sense from the book is that over time, though, that this idea that there must be some magic there, there must be some there there starts to wear off. What did they learn about him?

WOLFF: I think the two fundamental issues were that Donald Trump doesn't read anything. And let me accent that - anything, nothing. And that's - if you're working for the president of the United States, that's an odd position because how do you get information to him? And that's already a major hurdle⁹. But then there's the second hurdle that not only does he not read. He doesn't listen. So it becomes from day one the crisis of the presidency. You can't tell him anything.

So on the first day of the presidency when he announces that the inaugural¹⁰ crowds were three or four or five times larger than they actually were, you couldn't say to him - you couldn't give him the information to say, that's not true. And you couldn't tell him it because he wouldn't listen to you. It is entirely¹¹ his reality.

MCEVERS: So because - so working there becomes the job of how to manage a person like this.

WOLFF: And people began to learn sort of strategies. I mean, a central strategy is that, you know, he's obsessively¹² focused on the media. So whatever you told him had to be processed through the media, which set up this whole pattern of leaks in this White House. And then you had to have your sources. So you know, the president has this whole coterie¹³ of billionaires he speaks to at night. And so you had to plant information with them to then pass to the president. It got to be a very complicated and shortly dysfunctional situation.

MCEVERS: I think questions about Trump's competence¹⁴ might be one of the most chilling things about the book. You write, a hundred percent of the people around him - senior advisers¹⁵, family members - every single one of them questioned his intelligence and fitness for office - just want to make sure you still stand by that, yeah?

WOLFF: Absolutely. And that's - that is the story of this book. Again, these people and largely good people - in a sense, all good people - came into this White House with the best of intentions. And since, you know - and I was there. This is the story that I saw. I saw the transformation¹⁶. I mean, in the beginning, they, you know, pumped you full of how great Donald Trump was. And as the days went on, you saw that - the transformation, their own doubts beginning. They began to - sort of this kind of physical reaction. They would tell you these positive things, but their eyes would roll, and their - and they would kind of pantomime in certain ways. You know, they wanted to communicate to people outside that they knew, that they understood something.

And then this got more intense until you would get to the point where people were really saying, you know - really questioning him. Is he actually stupid? Is he actually illiterate¹⁷? Is he - you know, what is going on - trying to understand what they were dealing¹⁸ with and then, in the end, getting to the point - and this was certainly most vividly¹⁹ expressed in the book by Steve Bannon - of just not believing that this would in any way, shape or form have a happy ending.

MCEVERS: You know, let me put that question to you. Is it just that he's not intelligent and not fit, as you write, or is there something deeper here, something more?

WOLFF: Well, I think that's already pretty deep. But yes, and then there is - and then I think what you're getting at - and certainly it's an open discussion in the White House. As Steve Bannon put it, is he losing it? And you know, one of the things that's most concerning to a lot of people around the president is this level of repetition that he has. When you speak to him, it's - you know, it's unavoidable.

And so, I mean, a lot of the people have pointed²⁰ out and I think I point out in the book that there was this - you know, in the beginning, you know, he would tell the three - the same three stories within 25 minutes. And when I say tell them the same three stories, I mean with the same words and the same facial expressions. And then people found that that was shortening. So you got those three stories in the first 15 minutes. And in the first 10 minutes, you got three stories.

And so by September, actually there was a "60 Minutes" interview which they canceled, and they canceled because they worried that he couldn't do it. And they took a Fox interview, a Hannity interview instead knowing that it would be, A, friendly and with the suggestion which I believe to be absolutely true that the show supplied them with the questions beforehand.

MCEVERS: Where do you think this goes? How does this end up?

WOLFF: You know, I think in many ways, from the beginning, this has felt like like a train wreck²¹. And as it happened, the train just kept going on, but the wall was still out there. Eventually it would hit that wall. You know, I think - and I was certainly willing to be convinced differently, willing to think that this unusual figure had a new way to approach things. And you know, what the heck, maybe it would work. I think I feel that that is not the case now. And I saw and learned and - that everyone around him feels that's not the case. The train will hit the wall.

MCEVERS: Michael Wolff, thank you so much for your time today.

WOLFF: Thank you.

MCEVERS: That's author Michael Wolff talking about his new book "Fire And Fury: Inside The Trump White House." And on Monday, you can hear more of our conversation about former chief strategist Steve Bannon.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

3 controversy   

n.争论，辩论，争吵

参考例句：

• That is a fact beyond controversy.那是一个无可争论的事实。
• We ran the risk of becoming the butt of every controversy.我们要冒使自己在所有的纷争中都成为众矢之的的风险。

4 excerpts   

n.摘录，摘要( excerpt的名词复数 )；节选（音乐，电影）片段

参考例句：

• Some excerpts from a Renaissance mass are spatchcocked into Gluck's pallid Don Juan music. 一些文艺复光时期的弥撒的选节被不适当地加入到了格鲁克平淡无味的唐璜音乐中。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He is editing together excerpts of some of his films. 他正在将自己制作的一些电影的片断进行剪辑合成。 来自辞典例句

5 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

6 immediate   

adj.立即的；直接的，最接近的；紧靠的

参考例句：

• His immediate neighbours felt it their duty to call.他的近邻认为他们有责任去拜访。
• We declared ourselves for the immediate convocation of the meeting.我们主张立即召开这个会议。

7 mere   

adj.纯粹的；仅仅，只不过

参考例句：

• That is a mere repetition of what you said before.那不过是重复了你以前讲的话。
• It's a mere waste of time waiting any longer.再等下去纯粹是浪费时间。

8 astuteness   

n.敏锐；精明；机敏

参考例句：

• His pleasant, somewhat ordinary face suggested amiability rather than astuteness. 他那讨人喜欢而近乎平庸的脸显得和蔼有余而机敏不足。 来自互联网
• Young Singaporeans seem to lack the astuteness and dynamism that they possess. 本地的一般年轻人似乎就缺少了那份机灵和朝气。 来自互联网

9 hurdle   

n.跳栏，栏架；障碍，困难；vi.进行跨栏赛

参考例句：

• The weather will be the biggest hurdle so I have to be ready.天气将会是最大的障碍，所以我必须要作好准备。
• She clocked 11.6 seconds for the 80 metre hurdle.八十米跳栏赛跑她跑了十一秒六。

10 inaugural   

adj.就职的；n.就职典礼

参考例句：

• We listened to the President's inaugural speech on the radio yesterday.昨天我们通过无线电听了总统的就职演说。
• Professor Pearson gave the inaugural lecture in the new lecture theatre.皮尔逊教授在新的阶梯讲堂发表了启用演说。

11 entirely   

ad.全部地，完整地；完全地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The fire was entirely caused by their neglect of duty. 那场火灾完全是由于他们失职而引起的。
• His life was entirely given up to the educational work. 他的一生统统献给了教育工作。

12 obsessively   

ad.着迷般地，过分地

参考例句：

• Peter was obsessively jealous and his behaviour was driving his wife away. 彼得过分嫉妒的举止令他的妻子想离他而去。
• He's rude to his friends and obsessively jealous. 他对他的朋友很无礼而且嫉妒心重。

13 coterie   

n.(有共同兴趣的)小团体，小圈子

参考例句：

• The name is known to only a small coterie of collectors.这个名字只有收藏家的小圈子才知道。
• Mary and her coterie gave a party to which we were not invited.玛利和她的圈内朋友举行派对，我们没被邀请。

14 competence   

n.能力，胜任，称职

参考例句：

• This mess is a poor reflection on his competence.这种混乱情况说明他难当此任。
• These are matters within the competence of the court.这些是法院权限以内的事。

15 advisers   

顾问，劝告者( adviser的名词复数 )； （指导大学新生学科问题等的）指导教授

参考例句：

• a member of the President's favoured circle of advisers 总统宠爱的顾问班子中的一员
• She withdrew to confer with her advisers before announcing a decision. 她先去请教顾问然后再宣布决定。

16 transformation   

n.变化；改造；转变

参考例句：

• Going to college brought about a dramatic transformation in her outlook.上大学使她的观念发生了巨大的变化。
• He was struggling to make the transformation from single man to responsible husband.他正在努力使自己由单身汉变为可靠的丈夫。

17 illiterate   

adj.文盲的；无知的；n.文盲

参考例句：

• There are still many illiterate people in our country.在我国还有许多文盲。
• I was an illiterate in the old society,but now I can read.我这个旧社会的文盲，今天也认字了。

18 dealing   

n.经商方法，待人态度

参考例句：

• This store has an excellent reputation for fair dealing.该商店因买卖公道而享有极高的声誉。
• His fair dealing earned our confidence.他的诚实的行为获得我们的信任。

19 vividly   

adv.清楚地，鲜明地，生动地

参考例句：

• The speaker pictured the suffering of the poor vividly.演讲者很生动地描述了穷人的生活。
• The characters in the book are vividly presented.这本书里的人物写得栩栩如生。

20 pointed   

adj.尖的，直截了当的

参考例句：

• He gave me a very sharp pointed pencil.他给我一支削得非常尖的铅笔。
• She wished to show Mrs.John Dashwood by this pointed invitation to her brother.她想通过对达茨伍德夫人提出直截了当的邀请向她的哥哥表示出来。

21 wreck   

n.失事，遇难；沉船；vt.(船等)失事，遇难

参考例句：

• Weather may have been a factor in the wreck.天气可能是造成这次失事的原因之一。
• No one can wreck the friendship between us.没有人能够破坏我们之间的友谊。