美国国家公共电台 NPR Netanyahu's Not-Quite-2-State Solution

 

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

We've been asking the prime minister of Israel about a Palestinian state. The subject returned to Benjamin Netanyahu's agenda last week. President Trump¹ put it there. Trump joined his predecessors² favoring a separate Palestinian state on land that Israel has occupied since a 1967 war.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think probably two-state is more likely. But you know what? If they do a single, if they do a double - I'm OK with it if they're both happy. If they're both happy, I'm OK with either. I think the two-state is more likely.

INSKEEP: It is not clear how the two sides would get to a second state. The Trump administration has yet to reveal its peace plan. U.S. diplomats³ are pressuring Palestinians to settle for less and less. Some Palestinians have been shifting focus. Palestinian analyst⁴ Yezid Sayigh told us the other day that Palestinians need basic civil rights.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

YEZID SAYIGH: I don't care if the state that represents them is Israel or Palestine or has some other science fiction name. These are human beings who are entitled to live a life of dignity, of prosperity, in which they fulfill⁵ themselves as individuals and as groups in every possible way that any American or British person or Chinese person would want.

INSKEEP: Palestinians today have trouble going abroad without Israeli permission and have no say about the movements of Israeli forces. The demand for equal rights is provocative⁶. It implies that if Palestinians are denied a state, millions could demand voting rights in Israel. Not surprisingly, Benjamin Netanyahu sees this matter differently. He once endorsed⁷ a separate Palestinian state but now favors something less. So when he came on the line Friday, we asked him about President Trump's endorsement⁸ of the two-state solution.

Can that happen on your watch, Prime Minister?

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Look; I think people mean different things when they say two-state. So rather than get into the label, I'd like to talk about the substance. My view of a potential agreement is that the Palestinians should be able to have all the powers to govern themselves but not have the powers to threaten us. The key power that must not be in their hands is the question of security. In the tiny area west of the Jordan River up to the Mediterranean⁹ - it's all about a width of about 50, 60 kilometers - where both Palestinians and Israelis live, Israel must retain the overriding¹⁰ security responsibility.

Otherwise we'll get what happened already in Lebanon and Gaza when we left and basically militant¹¹ Islam came in under Hezbollah, subservient¹² to Iran, or under Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, subservient to Iran. So if you have a state that has most of the sovereign powers of the state but not the power of security, is that a state or not a state? I don't know. You can argue about that. But that's my position, and I've made it very, very clear both to the previous administration and to the Trump administration.

INSKEEP: Well, let's look at it from the other perspective if we can, then, the question of what Palestinians - actually, the ordinary Palestinian would get. David Friedman, the United States ambassador to Israel, said some days ago - some weeks ago on a conference call with the American Jewish Congress that there are 2 1/2 million Palestinians, he said, on the West Bank and, quote, "you either have to let them go in an independent state, or Israel is going to have to absorb them." At some point, Israel's going to have to make a decision, he says. Now, you're not willing to put the state label, the independent state label, or give them full independence. What about the other option? Are you ready to absorb 2 1/2 million Palestinians and give them full civil and voting rights - equal rights in Israel?

NETANYAHU: No. I don't want them either as citizens of Israel or as subjects of Israel. But I think there's - it's not an either-or model. I think we have a third model at the very least which is basically all the powers of sovereignty or nearly all the powers but not the ones of security. Look in the Middle East, which is littered with failed states. That's often the best you can do. And when you try to do something else, you know, you get a Gaza.

INSKEEP: But you're talking...

NETANYAHU: But that didn't work out.

INSKEEP: You're talking about a situation then, Prime Minister, where you don't want them as citizens of Israel, but you want Israel to still have effective security control of that area. That leads to...

NETANYAHU: That's right.

INSKEEP: ...The question, are you willing to support a proposal that would give Palestinians equal rights, civil rights, full rights that are equal to those of any Jewish Israeli citizen, and what form would that take?

NETANYAHU: Well, they would have those rights in their own territory. In other words, they have their own parliament. They have their own government. They have their own flag. They have their own...

INSKEEP: Well, they have a flag now, but they have very, very little rights compared to the average Israeli, I would think.

NETANYAHU: ...Well, no, if you go - we don't govern the Palestinian cities. We don't administer Ramallah or Jenin or Nablus. It's governed by the Palestinians. But you can extend that governance, but not to the point where you would endanger Israel. Now, this is a very odd thing where the Palestinians are actually demanding something that would collapse¹³ their own authority and their own government, but it's not the first time that they do so. So I think we have to be realistic. As long as, you know, we have the Middle East unreformed and pockmarked with so much violence, so much radicalism¹⁴, so much terrorism, this is the best arrangement we could arrive at.

INSKEEP: And you believe, in any circumstance, that Israel should be able not only to have security control but to arrest people, to bring them into Israeli courts. You want that to stay with Israel.

NETANYAHU: Yes, I want Israel to have that overriding power. And I'll tell you why you don't see - this is an interesting question. How come you don't see that much terrorism in the West Bank? Well, first of all, we have security cooperation with the Palestinian Authority. That's good. We don't have it with Hamas in Gaza. But the bulk of the security operations is done by us. But here's how it's done.

We have, say, intelligence about terrorists in one of the Palestinian towns. And we would call up typically the Palestinian security authorities and say, why don't you take care of it? Because I don't want to send our soldiers there if we don't have to. Why should we? You know, and often we have to do it because we're willing to take the risk. We're then attacked as we were at the U.N. by President Abbas. So they want us to take care of their security, but they also, you know, attack us internationally.

INSKEEP: Final thing, Prime Minister, 'cause I know your time is very brief.

NETANYAHU: I hope you got the irony¹⁵ of what I said.

INSKEEP: I understand. I do. Final thing - you have been very closely aligned¹⁶ with President Trump. That has carried certain great benefits for you. Is there also a risk in being so closely aligned with such a polarizing president because you would rather, as Israel historically has, have bipartisan support in the United States?

NETANYAHU: Israel values its bipartisan support, and Israel has had bipartisan support and I believe will have in the future. It's a very powerful bond.

INSKEEP: There's no risk with being so close to Trump?

NETANYAHU: Well, I think that, you know, you've seen that we could have agreements and disagreements with previous administrations. For example, we had - you know, it's no secret I had a disagreement with President Obama on Iran. But at the same time, we signed an MOU, and the MOU - the memorandum¹⁷ of understanding guaranteed Israel very important American security assistance for the coming decade. And I appreciate that. So we can have disagreements and yet have a basic agreement about the importance of our alliance.

INSKEEP: Prime Minister Netanyahu, it's always a pleasure talking with you. Thank you very much.

NETANYAHU: Thank you, Steve. Good to talk to you.

INSKEEP: Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu - we also invited Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas to join us, and that invitation remains¹⁸ open.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 predecessors   

n.前任( predecessor的名词复数 )；前辈；（被取代的）原有事物；前身

参考例句：

• The new government set about dismantling their predecessors' legislation. 新政府正着手废除其前任所制定的法律。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Will new plan be any more acceptable than its predecessors? 新计划比原先的计划更能令人满意吗？ 来自《简明英汉词典》

3 diplomats   

n.外交官( diplomat的名词复数 )；有手腕的人，善于交际的人

参考例句：

• These events led to the expulsion of senior diplomats from the country. 这些事件导致一些高级外交官被驱逐出境。
• The court has no jurisdiction over foreign diplomats living in this country. 法院对驻本国的外交官无裁判权。 来自《简明英汉词典》

4 analyst   

n.分析家，化验员；心理分析学家

参考例句：

• What can you contribute to the position of a market analyst?你有什么技能可有助于市场分析员的职务？
• The analyst is required to interpolate values between standards.分析人员需要在这些标准中插入一些值。

5 fulfill   

vt.履行，实现，完成；满足，使满意

参考例句：

• If you make a promise you should fulfill it.如果你许诺了，你就要履行你的诺言。
• This company should be able to fulfill our requirements.这家公司应该能够满足我们的要求。

6 provocative   

adj.挑衅的，煽动的，刺激的，挑逗的

参考例句：

• She wore a very provocative dress.她穿了一件非常性感的裙子。
• His provocative words only fueled the argument further.他的挑衅性讲话只能使争论进一步激化。

7 endorsed   

vt.& vi.endorse的过去式或过去分词形式v.赞同( endorse的过去式和过去分词 )；在（尤指支票的）背面签字；在（文件的）背面写评论；在广告上说本人使用并赞同某产品

参考例句：

• The committee endorsed an initiative by the chairman to enter discussion about a possible merger. 委员会通过了主席提出的新方案，开始就可能进行的并购进行讨论。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The government has broadly endorsed a research paper proposing new educational targets for 14-year-olds. 政府基本上支持建议对14 岁少年实行新教育目标的研究报告。 来自《简明英汉词典》

8 endorsement   

n.背书；赞成，认可，担保；签(注)，批注

参考例句：

• We are happy to give the product our full endorsement.我们很高兴给予该产品完全的认可。
• His presidential campaign won endorsement from several celebrities.他参加总统竞选得到一些社会名流的支持。

9 Mediterranean   

adj.地中海的；地中海沿岸的

参考例句：

• The houses are Mediterranean in character.这些房子都属地中海风格。
• Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean.直布罗陀是地中海的要冲。

10 overriding   

a.最主要的

参考例句：

• Development is of overriding importance. 发展是硬道理
• My overriding concern is to raise the standards of state education. 我最关心的是提高国民教育水平。

11 militant   

adj.激进的，好斗的；n.激进分子，斗士

参考例句：

• Some militant leaders want to merge with white radicals.一些好斗的领导人要和白人中的激进派联合。
• He is a militant in the movement.他在那次运动中是个激进人物。

12 subservient   

adj.卑屈的，阿谀的

参考例句：

• He was subservient and servile.他低声下气、卑躬屈膝。
• It was horrible to have to be affable and subservient.不得不强作欢颜卖弄风骚，真是太可怕了。

13 collapse   

vi.累倒；昏倒；倒塌；塌陷

参考例句：

• The country's economy is on the verge of collapse.国家的经济已到了崩溃的边缘。
• The engineer made a complete diagnosis of the bridge's collapse.工程师对桥的倒塌做了一次彻底的调查分析。

14 radicalism   

n. 急进主义, 根本的改革主义

参考例句：

• His radicalism and refusal to compromise isolated him. 他的激进主义与拒绝妥协使他受到孤立。
• Education produced intellectual ferment and the temptations of radicalism. 教育带来知识界的骚动，促使激进主义具有了吸引力。

15 irony   

n.反语，冷嘲；具有讽刺意味的事，嘲弄

参考例句：

• She said to him with slight irony.她略带嘲讽地对他说。
• In her voice we could sense a certain tinge of irony.从她的声音里我们可以感到某种讥讽的意味。

16 aligned   

adj.对齐的，均衡的

参考例句：

• Make sure the shelf is aligned with the top of the cupboard.务必使搁架与橱柜顶端对齐。

17 memorandum   

n.备忘录，便笺

参考例句：

• The memorandum was dated 23 August,2008.备忘录上注明的日期是2008年8月23日。
• The Secretary notes down the date of the meeting in her memorandum book.秘书把会议日期都写在记事本上。

18 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。