美国国家公共电台 NPR Riz Ahmed On Rapping, Acting And Being His (Sometimes Shirtless) 'Most Complex Self'

 

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

Riz Ahmed is everywhere. He's the co-star of the comic book blockbuster "Venom¹." He's in an indie Western "The Sisters Brothers." Meanwhile he's releasing music and selling out concerts. He's also a magazine covers and might even be your Internet bae. Now, the first time I heard Ahmed, he was doing something a lot of A-list celebrities² don't do - spoken-word poetry on "The Tonight Show," of all places.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON")

RIZ AHMED: In these sour times, please allow me to vouch⁴ for mine. Bitter taste in my mouth - spit it out with a rhyme. Hey, yo, I'm losing my religion to tomorrow's headlines.

CORNISH: It was August of 2017 right after the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va. He'd reworked a piece that he had written in the early years of the war on terror.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON")

AHMED: Terrorism ain't what you think it is. There ain't no super-villain planning these attacks from some base. The truth is so much scarier and harder to face. See; there's thousands of angry young men that are lost, sidelined in the economy, a marginal cost. They think there's no point in putting ballots⁵ up in the box. They got no place in the system and no faith in its cogs - easy targets to be getting brainwashed by these [expletive] who say that spilling innocent blood is pleasing a god.

CORNISH: It's called "Sour Times." When I spoke³ to Riz Ahmed in front of a live audience last week, I asked him about that piece and how his feelings about it have changed.

AHMED: I didn't perform that for about four years because I was terrified if anyone ever heard me say things like that, I might get locked up. I might get tarred as a terrorism apologist, as a radical⁶. And it's really interesting the limitations that we place on ourselves. And when I did first rap it to someone, to my friend - and he was like, yo, that's the [expletive] you should be putting out. I was like, really, I've been scared to say that to people. So ever since then, I reminded myself it's never a good time. If you wait until there's a perfect time, there's a perfect atmosphere to say something's, you should just assume you're always going to piss someone off and then do it anyway.

CORNISH: Riz Ahmed is 35. He's British-Pakistani, Muslim, a graduate of Oxford⁷. He's also the first South Asian man to win an acting⁸ Emmy for his role in the HBO drama "The Night Of." He says that show and its central character, a young man awaiting trial for murder in Rikers Island, are all about complexity⁹ and shades of grey.

AHMED: I think there's a kind of duality to it as well, to be honest. What it drew people in with for some people was it allowed them to indulge their fantasies of a dangerous Muslim. But I think what it slapped them in the face with was the realization¹⁰ of our common humanity. And I think that kind of bait-and-switch was actually quite effective.

CORNISH: I think you write about this really eloquently¹¹ at the - 'cause at the time, you had this essay that appeared in The Guardian¹² which was - the title was "Typecast As A Terrorist." And you talk about this idea of there being three stages for a brown actor in film. Do you mind just telling us what those three stages are?

AHMED: Basically I think when it starts out, you're asked to play the cab driver. You're asked to play the terrorist. It's the arranged marriage. It's the honor killing¹³. It's that kind of thing. I kind of just made a decision right at the start I wasn't going to do that work. I just wasn't interested in it. That's not why I went into this. And sometimes that meant going without work, particularly when I joined the industry, which was peak post-9/11, you know, fear circus vibes.

And then the stage two after those stereotypical¹⁴ portrayals¹⁵ I think is stories that take place on explicitly¹⁶ ethnicized terrain¹⁷ but aims to subvert¹⁸ those. And that was work that started taking shape when I joined the industry. I was lucky that I was a part of those projects, like "Four Lions." It's about a group of terrorists, but they're just kind of these lovable dopes. They accidently blow up bin¹⁹ Laden²⁰ in wherever. It just kind of makes you second-guess that maybe a more subversive²¹ thought than they're monsters is, [expletive], they're just like us.

And in stage three, our thought is this idea of the promise land, you know, where I'm not shackled²² to my ethnicity, or the roles I'm playing aren't only ones which are very, very culturally specific. And you could look at this as, like, playing roles where I could play a guy, you know, named Bob or Dave. But the promise land isn't just about deracination. It's about getting to this place where it's like, I could also play a character called Nazir (ph). It's not about leaving my identity behind. It's about not just being shackled to a two-dimensional idea of it.

CORNISH: So as your star is on the rise, you reach this new level of fame. And we'll call this level of fame the Hollywood sex symbol.

(CHEERING)

CORNISH: OK, listeners, what you can't see that the audience at this event can is a massive photo from a magazine spread projected on the screen behind us. It's Riz Ahmed lying on a leather couch oiled up with his shirt undone²³.

(CHEERING)

CORNISH: What's this like for you?

(LAUGHTER)

AHMED: Pretty awkward as you can see.

CORNISH: But it also means you're kind of put on a pedestal - right? - especially when somebody is, like, smart on current events and issues of the day. Then you are the kind of woke Internet boyfriend. And that is a pedestal you can be knocked off of. How precarious²⁴ does it feel - that kind of popularity?

AHMED: OK, what is - I mean, two things I think to talk about what you said. First is this idea of kind of embracing your sexuality as a man, as a brown man in particular. That's something that sometimes I feel is, like, a little bit corny. Let's face it. You know, it can be. But I also think it's something that's kind of important to do because I think often brown men in our culture in diaspora are not allowed to be sexual, sensitive or sensual. They're, like, either terrorist barbarians²⁵ that are going to come and eat your kids, or they're completely emasculated, and they're not objects of desire at all.

You know, I've internalized that dichotomy as well. And in my own mind, I never cast myself as, like, the leading guy or as someone who'd be, you know, desirable in that way. And so that's really a process of re-education and kind of re-examining your self-image to allow yourself to do that, to allow yourself to be that, particularly if you're from a sexually conservative culture. So it's actually something that it's - I think has been part of my journey of growth to allow myself to occupy that space. In terms of, like, being knocked off Internet pedestals, I mean, like, it happens every 10 seconds, doesn't it, you know?

CORNISH: And I ask because you do speak out on ideas, right? You're not afraid to go on some talk show and really say what you think about something. And do you get nervous?

AHMED: Yeah, I guess maybe on some level I do feel like, oh, man, maybe there aren't a lot of people like me doing this. So I do feel a certain responsibility to represent or whatever. But coming with that and speaking to your point of being knocked off of kind of pedestals and disappointing people, you can't ever represent everyone. You can't ever represent everyone's point of view. The idea that I can, like - you know, that any given film, whether it's, like, "Bend It Like Beckham" or "East Is East" or "The Big Sick" or "Goodness Gracious Me" or "The Night Of" can satisfy an experience of a billion Muslims around the world or however many South Asians there are in America - that in itself is patronizing. And it's an unfair burden to place.

But I think the one responsibility you do have is to try and be your full self. And that's going to disappoint certain people. I'm not religious enough for certain people. I'm too religious for other people. I'm going - taking my shirt off too much for some people. I'm not taking it off enough for others, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

CORNISH: No one in this room of course...

AHMED: Yeah.

CORNISH: ...For that last one, yeah.

AHMED: So I think the main responsibility you have is, like, look; I'm going to do me, like, even when it's scary for me, even when I'm going out of my comfort zone and I feel exposed. I'm going to be my fullest, most complex self. And in doing that, hopefully you inspire other people, empower other people to go like, well, all right, you know, if he's going to look like a [expletive] with his shirt off in that, maybe I can, too. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

CORNISH: That's Riz Ahmed speaking before a live audience in Brooklyn for NPR Presents.

1 venom   

n.毒液，恶毒，痛恨

参考例句：

• The snake injects the venom immediately after biting its prey.毒蛇咬住猎物之后马上注入毒液。
• In fact,some components of the venom may benefit human health.事实上，毒液的某些成分可能有益于人类健康。

2 celebrities   

n.（尤指娱乐界的）名人( celebrity的名词复数 )；名流；名声；名誉

参考例句：

• He only invited A-list celebrities to his parties. 他只邀请头等名流参加他的聚会。
• a TV chat show full of B-list celebrities 由众多二流人物参加的电视访谈节目

3 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

4 vouch   

v.担保；断定；n.被担保者

参考例句：

• They asked whether I was prepared to vouch for him.他们问我是否愿意为他作担保。
• I can vouch for the fact that he is a good worker.我保证他是好员工。

5 ballots   

n.投票表决( ballot的名词复数 )；选举；选票；投票总数v.（使）投票表决( ballot的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• They're counting the ballots. 他们正在计算选票。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The news of rigged ballots has rubbed off much of the shine of their election victory. 他们操纵选票的消息使他们在选举中获得的胜利大为减色。 来自《简明英汉词典》

6 radical   

n.激进份子，原子团，根号；adj.根本的，激进的，彻底的

参考例句：

• The patient got a radical cure in the hospital.病人在医院得到了根治。
• She is radical in her demands.她的要求十分偏激。

7 Oxford   

n.牛津（英国城市）

参考例句：

• At present he has become a Professor of Chemistry at Oxford.他现在已是牛津大学的化学教授了。
• This is where the road to Oxford joins the road to London.这是去牛津的路与去伦敦的路的汇合处。

8 acting   

n.演戏，行为，假装；adj.代理的，临时的，演出用的

参考例句：

• Ignore her,she's just acting.别理她，她只是假装的。
• During the seventies,her acting career was in eclipse.在七十年代，她的表演生涯黯然失色。

9 complexity   

n.复杂(性)，复杂的事物

参考例句：

• Only now did he understand the full complexity of the problem.直到现在他才明白这一问题的全部复杂性。
• The complexity of the road map puzzled me.错综复杂的公路图把我搞糊涂了。

10 realization   

n.实现；认识到，深刻了解

参考例句：

• We shall gladly lend every effort in our power toward its realization.我们将乐意为它的实现而竭尽全力。
• He came to the realization that he would never make a good teacher.他逐渐认识到自己永远不会成为好老师。

11 eloquently   

adv. 雄辩地(有口才地, 富于表情地)

参考例句：

• I was toasted by him most eloquently at the dinner. 进餐时他口若悬河地向我祝酒。
• The poet eloquently expresses the sense of lost innocence. 诗人动人地表达了失去天真的感觉。

12 guardian   

n.监护人；守卫者，保护者

参考例句：

• The form must be signed by the child's parents or guardian. 这张表格须由孩子的家长或监护人签字。
• The press is a guardian of the public weal. 报刊是公共福利的卫护者。

13 killing   

n.巨额利润；突然赚大钱，发大财

参考例句：

• Investors are set to make a killing from the sell-off.投资者准备清仓以便大赚一笔。
• Last week my brother made a killing on Wall Street.上个周我兄弟在华尔街赚了一大笔。

14 stereotypical   

n.常规

参考例句：

• Personas should be typical and believable, but not stereotypical. 人物角色应该是典型和可信赖的，但不是一成不变的。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓
• Anything could be stereotypical, so I guess it could be criticism. 任何东西都可以变的老套，所以我猜那就是一种批评。 来自互联网

15 portrayals   

n.画像( portrayal的名词复数 )；描述；描写；描摹

参考例句：

• And painters alluded to her eroticism in their bare breasted portrayals of the dying queen. 画家们把她描绘为裸胸垂死的贪欲的女王。 来自互联网

16 explicitly   

ad.明确地，显然地

参考例句：

• The plan does not explicitly endorse the private ownership of land. 该计划没有明确地支持土地私有制。
• SARA amended section 113 to provide explicitly for a right to contribution. 《最高基金修正与再授权法案》修正了第123条，清楚地规定了分配权。 来自英汉非文学 - 环境法 - 环境法

17 terrain   

n.地面，地形，地图

参考例句：

• He had made a detailed study of the terrain.他对地形作了缜密的研究。
• He knows the terrain of this locality like the back of his hand.他对这一带的地形了如指掌。

18 subvert   

v.推翻；暗中破坏；搅乱

参考例句：

• The rebel army is attempting to subvert the government.反叛军队企图颠覆政府统治。
• They tried to subvert our state and our Party. This is the crux of the matter.他们是要颠覆我们的国家，颠覆我们的党，这是问题的实质。

19 bin   

n.箱柜；vt.放入箱内；[计算机] DOS文件名:二进制目标文件

参考例句：

• He emptied several bags of rice into a bin.他把几袋米倒进大箱里。
• He threw the empty bottles in the bin.他把空瓶子扔进垃圾箱。

20 laden   

adj.装满了的；充满了的；负了重担的；苦恼的

参考例句：

• He is laden with heavy responsibility.他肩负重任。
• Dragging the fully laden boat across the sand dunes was no mean feat.将满载货物的船拖过沙丘是一件了不起的事。

21 subversive   

adj.颠覆性的，破坏性的；n.破坏份子，危险份子

参考例句：

• She was seen as a potentially subversive within the party.她被看成党内潜在的颠覆分子。
• The police is investigating subversive group in the student organization.警方正调查学生组织中的搞颠覆阴谋的集团。

22 shackled   

给（某人）带上手铐或脚镣( shackle的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The hostage had been shackled to a radiator. 当时人质被铐在暖气片上。
• He was shackled and in darkness of torment. 他被困在黑暗中备受煎熬。

23 undone   

a.未做完的，未完成的

参考例句：

• He left nothing undone that needed attention.所有需要注意的事他都注意到了。

24 precarious   

adj.不安定的，靠不住的；根据不足的

参考例句：

• Our financial situation had become precarious.我们的财务状况已变得不稳定了。
• He earned a precarious living as an artist.作为一个艺术家，他过得是朝不保夕的生活。

25 barbarians   

n.野蛮人( barbarian的名词复数 )；外国人；粗野的人；无教养的人

参考例句：

• The ancient city of Rome fell under the iron hooves of the barbarians. 古罗马城在蛮族的铁蹄下沦陷了。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• It conquered its conquerors, the barbarians. 它战胜了征服者——蛮族。 来自英汉非文学 - 历史