美国国家公共电台 NPR The Evangelical Bishop Who Stopped Believing In Hell, Now On Netflix

 

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

And now we visit with the man, himself. Bishop¹ Carlton Pearson is with us now from our studios in Washington, D.C.

Bishop Pearson, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.

CARLTON PEARSON: Thank you, Michel. Happy to be here.

MARTIN: Can we go back - and I understand that it's always a complex and long story - but can we just go back and ask, how did you receive your call to ministry² to begin with?

PEARSON: I'm a fourth-generation classical Pentecostal preacher. My dad, his dad, my maternal³ great-grandfather and several of my uncles on both sides. And it kind of is something that always fascinated me. I just loved preaching and felt an urge when I was as young as 5 years old.

MARTIN: I guess, it was kind of a river that pulled you along, and you felt comfortable.

PEARSON: My parents would punish me by not letting me go to church. That's how badly I wanted to go. I knew the songs. I knew the quote-unquote "saints." All of our family on both sides - all cousins, all relatives - our lives literally⁴ revolved⁵ around the church.

MARTIN: And tell me about higher dimensions. Your church in Tulsa - what was unique about it, by all accounts, is that, first of all, it was truly diverse. A lot of people think a ministry is diverse if, you know, there's maybe three black people in it or, you know, whatever. But this was truly diverse. You had a diverse staff. You had a diverse choir⁶.

PEARSON: Yes. And the congregation was.

MARTIN: And the congregation, and that was considered quite remarkable⁷, particularly in Tulsa at that time.

PEARSON: And under an African-American's leadership. Black people have always integrated somewhat to non-black churches or churches that are predominately white but not under a black man's leadership. Usually, whites don't come to a black person's church as much. We made sure that our leadership was visibly integrated. When I was very young when I started in my 30s - so we attracted a lot of young, curious, eager people that didn't want traditional church. They wanted something a little bit different.

MARTIN: I was going to ask you what do you think was drawing them in?

PEARSON: The music. We had a high music content. I mean, the band was slamming. And of course, I was single in those days, and I didn't realize that there were a lot of single women who came until I got engaged and the balcony emptied out. That was a big insult because I thought they were there for my anointing (laughter).

MARTIN: Well, let me play a little bit from the film. This is Chiwetel Ejiofor playing you. OK here, let's just play a little bit.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "COME SUNDAY")

CHIWETEL EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Look at somebody and say this is what we do.

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (As characters) This is what we do.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Because the world needs to get saved.

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (As characters) The world needs to get saved.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Left them up and say hallelujah.

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (As characters) Hallelujah.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Say I'm a soldier.

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (As characters) I'm a soldier.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Say I'm a soldier.

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (As characters) I'm a soldier.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson, singing) And I'm a soldier.

UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (As characters, singing) In the army of the Lord.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson, singing) I'm a soldier.

UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (As characters, singing) In the army.

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson, singing) I'm a soldier.

UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (As characters, singing) In the army of the Lord.

MARTIN: Well, there it is (laughter). There you go. The pivot⁸ in this story in your life came when you believed that this kind of focus on hell and damnation and avoiding hell was wrong, that if the central message of Christianity is true - that Jesus died for the sins of the world - then all this focus on hell and damnation is not right because that work has been done, right?

PEARSON: Finished.

MARTIN: And so - finished. So I wanted to ask you when you came to that, was it, like, a physical thing in your body? Like, how did it come to you?

PEARSON: I was frustrated¹⁰ that we, as Christians¹¹ - we had traffic jams every Sunday morning, and I kept saying, we're not really growing. We're just getting fat. It's spiritual incest here. We're seething¹² into ourselves. We're not reeling - winning quote-unquote "lost" people. They don't know we exist. I went to the city to the town carnival¹³, and I took my kids. And that's the first time I'd been since I was a freshman¹⁴ in college. And I noticed that I'd been on nationwide television for years. Nobody at that place recognized me. I didn't see people I knew. And I thought, well, maybe - who are these people? We're not reaching this element of our Tulsa community. Many of them had come from outside cities, and I just thought, I don't think these folks have a clue of what we're talking about. And I said to my people, you're not really witnessing. You're afraid to, so stop telling people they have to get saved. Tell them they're already safe with God, that any issue between them and God was resolved in Christ. Don't impose sin. Don't ask them - tell them that they're on their way to hell and all that kind of stuff. Come in another way.

MARTIN: Well, you know, that's interesting because one of the things that reviewers have said that they like about this film is that it shows genuine love. It shows genuine love for a point of view that people who aren't in that world don't often get - right? - from outside of it. But I just want to play you a clip that intrigued¹⁵ me. This is from the film "Come Sunday." This is when your associate ministers came and told you they were quitting because they were not in agreement with your point of view. And this is Jason Segel playing your associate minister, Henry. I just wanted to play that here.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "COME SUNDAY")

JASON SEGEL: (As Henry) It wasn't God's voice you heard, Bishop.

CONDOLA RASHAD: (As Gina Pearson) Now, how do you know?

SEGEL: (As Henry) How do you...

EJIOFOR: (As Carlton Pearson) Gina, it's OK.

RASHAD: (As Gina Pearson) Come up in here, ganging up on him.

SEGEL: (As Henry) What if he's wrong? You don't know. None of us - none of us knows. But you want me to just trust you, and you want me to go out and tell people it doesn't matter if they accept Christ, it doesn't matter if they go out there and sin. Well, what if it turns out that you are wrong and there is a hell and we are responsible? Even if I thought that you might be right - which I don't - it's not a chance that I'd be willing to take.

MARTIN: You know, what about that? You know, millions of people believe what you used to believe, and millions of people believe that that is bunk¹⁶, it is utter hokum, and it is just a way to scare people into giving money to edifices¹⁷ to sort of - for the glorification¹⁸ of self, OK. What do we do with that? What do we do with that?

PEARSON: We are dealing¹⁹ with at least 2,000 years of entrenched²⁰ indoctrination - at least 2,000 with Christianity, 6,000 if you include Judaism. The concept, though, of a God who has terrible anger-management problems - freaks out with these tantrums, and throws earthquakes, and volcanoes, and tsunamis²¹, and cancer and AIDS on people is a very frightening presupposition.

It worried me for years - not the love of God, not the cross of calvary, but that eternal torment²², not just punishment that you eternally, while mercy endures forever - we love to quote that scripture²³. His mercy endures forever. How can mercy endure forever and torment endure forever? One would cancel out the other. And I believe that I'm actually trying to correct the thinking of my people - God's people, the Christian⁹ church, Judeo-Christian ethics²⁴ - change our belief about a God who is angry and who we need Jesus to protect us from. Now, that's radical²⁵. It's revolutionary, and it's evolutionary²⁶.

Now, the same people who watch this movie and say but he lost everything are forgetting that 117 million people may get to hear this message. What am I doing on the movement. I'm not dead yet.

MARTIN: Well, what are you hoping people will get from the film?

PEARSON: I just want them to rethink. I want them to say - ask themselves, what do I believe and why do I believe it? Where do I get these ideas from? And what is the difference between what I believe in my head and I know in my soul? Because I think there's a difference.

MARTIN: Carlton Pearson is the subject of a new Netflix film, "Come Sunday." It premiered Friday. He is on the pastoral staff at All Souls Unitarian Church in Tulsa, Okla. And he was kind enough...

PEARSON: Who would've believed it? Jeez (laughter).

MARTIN: (Laughter) And he was kind enough to join us here in our studios in Washington, D.C. Bishop Pearson, thank you so much for speaking with us.

PEARSON: Pleasure. Thanks for having me on, Michel. This is important.

1 bishop   

n.主教，（国际象棋）象

参考例句：

• He was a bishop who was held in reverence by all.他是一位被大家都尊敬的主教。
• Two years after his death the bishop was canonised.主教逝世两年后被正式封为圣者。

2 ministry   

n.(政府的)部；牧师

参考例句：

• They sent a deputation to the ministry to complain.他们派了一个代表团到部里投诉。
• We probed the Air Ministry statements.我们调查了空军部的记录。

3 maternal   

adj.母亲的，母亲般的，母系的，母方的

参考例句：

• He is my maternal uncle.他是我舅舅。
• The sight of the hopeless little boy aroused her maternal instincts.那个绝望的小男孩的模样唤起了她的母性。

4 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

5 revolved   

v.（使）旋转( revolve的过去式和过去分词 )；细想

参考例句：

• The fan revolved slowly. 电扇缓慢地转动着。
• The wheel revolved on its centre. 轮子绕中心转动。 来自《简明英汉词典》

6 choir   

n.唱诗班，唱诗班的席位，合唱团，舞蹈团；v.合唱

参考例句：

• The choir sang the words out with great vigor.合唱团以极大的热情唱出了歌词。
• The church choir is singing tonight.今晚教堂歌唱队要唱诗。

7 remarkable   

adj.显著的，异常的，非凡的，值得注意的

参考例句：

• She has made remarkable headway in her writing skills.她在写作技巧方面有了长足进步。
• These cars are remarkable for the quietness of their engines.这些汽车因发动机没有噪音而不同凡响。

8 pivot   

v.在枢轴上转动；装枢轴，枢轴；adj.枢轴的

参考例句：

• She is the central pivot of creation and represents the feminine aspect in all things.她是创造的中心枢轴，表现出万物的女性面貌。
• If a spring is present,the hand wheel will pivot on the spring.如果有弹簧，手轮的枢轴会装在弹簧上。

9 Christian   

adj.基督教徒的；n.基督教徒

参考例句：

• They always addressed each other by their Christian name.他们总是以教名互相称呼。
• His mother is a sincere Christian.他母亲是个虔诚的基督教徒。

10 frustrated   

adj.挫败的，失意的，泄气的v.使不成功( frustrate的过去式和过去分词 )；挫败；使受挫折；令人沮丧

参考例句：

• It's very easy to get frustrated in this job. 这个工作很容易令人懊恼。
• The bad weather frustrated all our hopes of going out. 恶劣的天气破坏了我们出行的愿望。 来自《简明英汉词典》

11 Christians   

n.基督教徒( Christian的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Christians of all denominations attended the conference. 基督教所有教派的人都出席了这次会议。
• His novel about Jesus caused a furore among Christians. 他关于耶稣的小说激起了基督教徒的公愤。

12 seething   

沸腾的，火热的

参考例句：

• The stadium was a seething cauldron of emotion. 体育场内群情沸腾。
• The meeting hall was seething at once. 会场上顿时沸腾起来了。

13 carnival   

n.嘉年华会，狂欢，狂欢节，巡回表演

参考例句：

• I got some good shots of the carnival.我有几个狂欢节的精彩镜头。
• Our street puts on a carnival every year.我们街的居民每年举行一次嘉年华会。

14 freshman   

n.大学一年级学生(可兼指男女)

参考例句：

• Jack decided to live in during his freshman year at college.杰克决定大一时住校。
• He is a freshman in the show business.他在演艺界是一名新手。

15 intrigued   

adj.好奇的，被迷住了的v.搞阴谋诡计(intrigue的过去式)；激起…的兴趣或好奇心；“intrigue”的过去式和过去分词

参考例句：

• You've really intrigued me—tell me more! 你说的真有意思—再给我讲一些吧！
• He was intrigued by her story. 他被她的故事迷住了。

16 bunk   

n.(车、船等倚壁而设的)铺位；废话

参考例句：

• He left his bunk and went up on deck again.他离开自己的铺位再次走到甲板上。
• Most economists think his theories are sheer bunk.大多数经济学家认为他的理论纯属胡说。

17 edifices   

n.大建筑物( edifice的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• They complain that the monstrous edifices interfere with television reception. 他们抱怨说，那些怪物般的庞大建筑，干扰了电视接收。 来自辞典例句
• Wealthy officials and landlords built these queer edifices a thousand years ago. 有钱的官吏和地主在一千年前就修建了这种奇怪的建筑物。 来自辞典例句

18 glorification   

n.赞颂

参考例句：

• Militant devotion to and glorification of one's country; fanatical patriotism. 对国家的军事效忠以及美化；狂热的爱国主义。
• Glorification-A change of place, a new condition with God. 得荣─在神面前新处境，改变了我们的结局。

19 dealing   

n.经商方法，待人态度

参考例句：

• This store has an excellent reputation for fair dealing.该商店因买卖公道而享有极高的声誉。
• His fair dealing earned our confidence.他的诚实的行为获得我们的信任。

20 entrenched   

adj.确立的，不容易改的(风俗习惯)

参考例句：

• Television seems to be firmly entrenched as the number one medium for national advertising.电视看来要在全国广告媒介中牢固地占据头等位置。
• If the enemy dares to attack us in these entrenched positions,we will make short work of them.如果敌人胆敢进攻我们固守的阵地，我们就消灭他们。

21 tsunamis   

n.海啸( tsunami的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Our oceans are alive with earthquakes, volcanoes, and more recently, tsunamis. 海中充满着地震、火山，包括最近发生的海啸。 来自常春藤生活英语杂志-2006年2月号
• Please tell me something more about tsunamis! 请您给我讲讲海啸吧！ 来自辞典例句

22 torment   

n.折磨；令人痛苦的东西(人)；vt.折磨；纠缠

参考例句：

• He has never suffered the torment of rejection.他从未经受过遭人拒绝的痛苦。
• Now nothing aggravates me more than when people torment each other.没有什么东西比人们的互相折磨更使我愤怒。

23 scripture   

n.经文，圣书，手稿；Scripture:(常用复数)《圣经》，《圣经》中的一段

参考例句：

• The scripture states that God did not want us to be alone.圣经指出上帝并不是想让我们独身一人生活。
• They invoked Hindu scripture to justify their position.他们援引印度教的经文为他们的立场辩护。

24 ethics   

n.伦理学；伦理观，道德标准

参考例句：

• The ethics of his profession don't permit him to do that.他的职业道德不允许他那样做。
• Personal ethics and professional ethics sometimes conflict.个人道德和职业道德有时会相互抵触。

25 radical   

n.激进份子，原子团，根号；adj.根本的，激进的，彻底的

参考例句：

• The patient got a radical cure in the hospital.病人在医院得到了根治。
• She is radical in her demands.她的要求十分偏激。

26 evolutionary   

adj.进化的；演化的，演变的；[生]进化论的

参考例句：

• Life has its own evolutionary process.生命有其自身的进化过程。
• These are fascinating questions to be resolved by the evolutionary studies of plants.这些十分吸引人的问题将在研究植物进化过程中得以解决。