美国国家公共电台 NPR 'Neverland' Director On Investigating 'What Happened Once The Bedroom Door Closed'

 

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

The late pop star Michael Jackson is the focus of HBO's new documentary "Leaving Neverland." It includes graphic¹ descriptions of child sexual abuse. And for that reason, the conversation we're about to have may not be appropriate for some listeners. The four-hour-long film centers on interviews with two men and their families. James Safechuck and Wade² Robson both say that Jackson sexually abused them for years beginning when they were children. Jackson always denied similar accusations³. And in 2005, he was acquitted⁴ after a trial on molestation⁵ charges. Here, James Safechuck describes a kind of code he and Jackson had when they were out in public together.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LEAVING NEVERLAND")

JAMES SAFECHUCK: Myself and Michael would scratch each other here on the palms if he were holding your hand. And that meant, like, you were thinking of them sexually.

DAN REED: For many years, Jackson posed as this innocent lover of children, and we wanted to make it absolutely clear that what happened was sexual activity without any doubt whatsoever⁶.

SHAPIRO: That's Filmmaker Dan Reed. He worked on this film for three years. And when we spoke⁷, I asked him if he ever doubted the stories that Safechuck and Robson were telling him.

REED: I approached their stories with a good deal of skepticism. I mean, this is a story that's attracted a lot of controversy⁸. And you know, the go-to tactic⁹ from the estate and the Jackson family has always been, well, these people are lying for money. And so with that ringing in my ears, I certainly took a good while before I let myself really begin to embrace and believe what Wade and James were telling me.

SHAPIRO: The Jackson family is not in your film, but they have been speaking about it, though they say they haven't watched it. Marlon Jackson, Michael Jackson's brother, was on "CBS This Morning." And here's something that he said about you.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CBS THIS MORNING")

MARLON JACKSON: So he took what they were saying face value as to be true. But I - he trusted them, but - which there's nothing wrong with that, but you must verify.

SHAPIRO: Dan Reed, how do you respond to that?

REED: Well, my answer is simple - is that I did verify. You know, I did a huge amount of work, and my team did a huge amount of work digging into the 1993 and the 2003 to 2005 criminal investigations¹⁰ against Jackson by the LAPD, by the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department. We spoke to investigators¹¹. We looked at documents. We found nothing that contradicted, and we found quite a lot that corroborated¹² Wade and James' stories specifically.

We're talking about something that the Jackson family has already accepted, I believe, which is that Michael spent many, many nights in the company of little boys and that he had little boys in his bed all the time. I don't think the family is denying that. Now, what we're looking at is what happened once the bedroom door closed.

SHAPIRO: Just to be specific, you refer to little boys. Wade Robson says he was 7 years old when the abuse started, and James Safechuck says he was 10 years old.

REED: Yes. So, I mean, 7 is very little indeed - isn't it? - to begin a sexual relationship.

SHAPIRO: Michael Jackson was the biggest celebrity¹³ on Earth. And at one point, James Safechuck talks about the extraordinary appeal of this man who had been on his TV screen virtually since he was born.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LEAVING NEVERLAND")

SAFECHUCK: He's the biggest entertainer, and he's a creative genius. And that creative genius thinks that you're special. What's not to like, right?

SHAPIRO: How does the nature of fame and celebrity factor into what happened here?

REED: I get asked this a lot, and it's an interesting question for these times, isn't it? Blind devotion - I think for many years, Michael was so famous and so dazzling and such a star in the firmament¹⁴ that it was almost impossible to think anything bad about him. And, you know, I think people completely lost their ability to think critically. And that goes for James and Wade's mothers, too. They were dazzled. They were star-struck. And, you know, they let their little boys sleep in Jackson's bed night after night and didn't think twice about that.

SHAPIRO: So this film is coming out 10 years after Michael Jackson's death, post-#MeToo post-"Surviving R. Kelly." Do you think there is something about this moment that makes the film possible that might not have been possible two or five or 10 years ago?

REED: No. We could've made this film when Jackson was alive. I believe the testimony¹⁵ in it is that strong. It would have stood up in court. The #MeToo movement erupted while we were in production, and it did play a part actually in Wade's mother's decision to take part in the film. She felt like, you know, the time has come.

So I think we're blessed with a - kind of a gathering¹⁶ momentum¹⁷ behind the idea that we should listen to the people who say they've been sexually abused, whether they're women or children or men. And I think this film expands the #MeToo notion into the area of male rape¹⁸ and the rape of children. And it's amazing to be part of that and to feel a part of that. But I do think we could have made this film earlier. I think it's - it has a powerful validity that transcends¹⁹ this moment.

SHAPIRO: Friends are asking me whether they should watch this film, and I'm honestly torn as to what to say because however important and well-made it may be, it is explicit²⁰ and painful and can be really difficult to watch. So why do you think people should choose to spend their time with this story?

REED: I think this is a really important story to get out there because as well as being Wade and James' story, it's also the story of a grooming²¹ - how a grooming pedophile tore two families apart. It happened to be Michael Jackson. It could have been the uncle, or the guy down the street or any trusted family member. And it's about that terrible abuse of trust, and it's about the dynamic of grooming pedophilia where, you know, there's this deep connection, and there's deep attachment²² that forms between the abuser and the child. And that's something a lot of parents don't understand.

It's something a lot of people out there don't understand. That's why everyone is, like, yelling at Wade, saying, well, hang on; you - you know, you stood on the witness stand, and you defended Michael Jackson in 2005, and now you're saying a completely different thing. Why should we believe you? And, you know, Wade stood up there, and he wanted to defend his close friend and the man who had been his lover for many years. And then many years later when he had a son of his own, he realized that the whole relationship had been an abusive one.

So, you know, I want people to be able to watch this film and understand child sexual abuse a little bit better. I think that's important for parents, and it's also important for people who've been victims and might see Wade's and James' courage and might be able to break their own silence, you know? That's the horrible thing - is that children are sucked into this contract of silence through shame, through fear, through love. And they don't dare to break it off until many, many years later. I think, you know, the average age of disclosure is something like, you know, late 40s or early 50s. So Wade and James are, you know, ahead of the game on that.

SHAPIRO: The way the word love dovetails with this abuse is so complicated because at many points throughout the film, the central figures, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, describe love for Michael Jackson and that love seems reciprocal even though it's very clear that they are being abused. How does that work itself out? How do you reconcile that?

REED: Well, that's the contradiction at the heart of this film, and it's the complexity²³ that drew me into wanting to really tell this story, which is that in an abusive pedophile relationship, there is both love, affection, mentoring²⁴, friendship, caring, and there is sexual abuse. And those two things coexist. And that's really difficult for all of us to wrap our heads around, you know? But we have to understand it. Otherwise we'll never understand child sexual abuse, and we'll never be able to keep our children safe, which is the most important thing that I think people could get from this film.

SHAPIRO: Dan Reed, thank you for speaking with us today.

REED: You're most welcome.

SHAPIRO: "Leaving Neverland" airs on HBO this Sunday and Monday. And we should note that the estate of Michael Jackson has filed a lawsuit²⁵ against HBO for breaching²⁶ a contract clause which included language that the network would not disparage²⁷ Jackson at any future point.

1 graphic   

adj.生动的，形象的，绘画的，文字的，图表的

参考例句：

• The book gave a graphic description of the war.这本书生动地描述了战争的情况。
• Distinguish important text items in lists with graphic icons.用图标来区分重要的文本项。

2 wade   

v.跋涉，涉水；n.跋涉

参考例句：

• We had to wade through the river to the opposite bank.我们只好涉水过河到对岸。
• We cannot but wade across the river.我们只好趟水过去。

3 accusations   

n.指责( accusation的名词复数 )；指控；控告；（被告发、控告的）罪名

参考例句：

• There were accusations of plagiarism. 曾有过关于剽窃的指控。
• He remained unruffled by their accusations. 对于他们的指控他处之泰然。

4 acquitted   

宣判…无罪( acquit的过去式和过去分词 )； 使（自己）作出某种表现

参考例句：

• The jury acquitted him of murder. 陪审团裁决他谋杀罪不成立。
• Five months ago she was acquitted on a shoplifting charge. 五个月前她被宣判未犯入店行窃罪。

5 molestation   

n.骚扰，干扰，调戏；折磨

参考例句：

• Michael Jackson is arrested by police on charges of child molestation. 2003年的今天，迈克尔·杰克逊因被警方指控有儿童性骚扰行为而被捕。 来自互联网
• Jackson pleads not guilty on the molestation charges. 2004年：杰克逊认罪不认罪的性骚扰指控。 来自互联网

6 whatsoever   

adv.（用于否定句中以加强语气）任何；pron.无论什么

参考例句：

• There's no reason whatsoever to turn down this suggestion.没有任何理由拒绝这个建议。
• All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them.你想别人对你怎样，你就怎样对人。

7 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

8 controversy   

n.争论，辩论，争吵

参考例句：

• That is a fact beyond controversy.那是一个无可争论的事实。
• We ran the risk of becoming the butt of every controversy.我们要冒使自己在所有的纷争中都成为众矢之的的风险。

9 tactic   

n.战略，策略；adj.战术的，有策略的

参考例句：

• Reducing prices is a common sales tactic.降价是常用的销售策略。
• She had often used the tactic of threatening to resign.她惯用以辞职相威胁的手法。

10 investigations   

（正式的）调查( investigation的名词复数 )； 侦查； 科学研究； 学术研究

参考例句：

• His investigations were intensive and thorough but revealed nothing. 他进行了深入彻底的调查，但没有发现什么。
• He often sent them out to make investigations. 他常常派他们出去作调查。

11 investigators   

n.调查者，审查者( investigator的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• This memo could be the smoking gun that investigators have been looking for. 这份备忘录可能是调查人员一直在寻找的证据。
• The team consisted of six investigators and two secretaries. 这个团队由六个调查人员和两个秘书组成。 来自《简明英汉词典》

12 corroborated   

v.证实，支持（某种说法、信仰、理论等）( corroborate的过去式 )

参考例句：

• The evidence was corroborated by two independent witnesses. 此证据由两名独立证人提供。
• Experiments have corroborated her predictions. 实验证实了她的预言。 来自《简明英汉词典》

13 celebrity   

n.名人，名流；著名，名声，名望

参考例句：

• Tom found himself something of a celebrity. 汤姆意识到自己已小有名气了。
• He haunted famous men, hoping to get celebrity for himself. 他常和名人在一起, 希望借此使自己获得名气。

14 firmament   

n.苍穹；最高层

参考例句：

• There are no stars in the firmament.天空没有一颗星星。
• He was rich,and a rising star in the political firmament.他十分富有，并且是政治高层一颗冉冉升起的新星。

15 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

16 gathering   

n.集会，聚会，聚集

参考例句：

• He called on Mr. White to speak at the gathering.他请怀特先生在集会上讲话。
• He is on the wing gathering material for his novels.他正忙于为他的小说收集资料。

17 momentum   

n.动力，冲力，势头；动量

参考例句：

• We exploit the energy and momentum conservation laws in this way.我们就是这样利用能量和动量守恒定律的。
• The law of momentum conservation could supplant Newton's third law.动量守恒定律可以取代牛顿第三定律。

18 rape   

n.抢夺，掠夺，强奸；vt.掠夺，抢夺，强奸

参考例句：

• The rape of the countryside had a profound ravage on them.对乡村的掠夺给他们造成严重创伤。
• He was brought to court and charged with rape.他被带到法庭并被指控犯有强奸罪。

19 transcends   

超出或超越（经验、信念、描写能力等）的范围( transcend的第三人称单数 )； 优于或胜过…

参考例句：

• The chemical dilution technique transcends most of the difficulties. 化学稀释法能克服大部分困难。
• The genius of Shakespeare transcends that of all other English poets. 莎士比亚的才华胜过所有的其他英国诗人。

20 explicit   

adj.详述的，明确的；坦率的；显然的

参考例句：

• She was quite explicit about why she left.她对自己离去的原因直言不讳。
• He avoids the explicit answer to us.他避免给我们明确的回答。

21 grooming   

n. 修饰, 美容，（动物）梳理毛发

参考例句：

• You should always pay attention to personal grooming. 你应随时注意个人仪容。
• We watched two apes grooming each other. 我们看两只猩猩在互相理毛。

22 attachment   

n.附属物，附件；依恋；依附

参考例句：

• She has a great attachment to her sister.她十分依恋她的姐姐。
• She's on attachment to the Ministry of Defense.她现在隶属于国防部。

23 complexity   

n.复杂(性)，复杂的事物

参考例句：

• Only now did he understand the full complexity of the problem.直到现在他才明白这一问题的全部复杂性。
• The complexity of the road map puzzled me.错综复杂的公路图把我搞糊涂了。

24 mentoring   

n.mentoring是一种工作关系。mentor通常是处在比mentee更高工作职位上的有影响力的人。他/她有比‘mentee’更丰富的工作经验和知识，并用心支持mentee的职业（发展）。v.（无经验之人的）有经验可信赖的顾问( mentor的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• One of the most effective instruments for coaching and mentoring is the "role rehearsal" . 辅导和教学的最有效的手段之一是“角色排练。” 来自辞典例句
• Bell Canada called their mentoring system a buddy-buddy system. 加拿大贝尔公司称他们的训导系统是伙伴—伙伴系统。 来自互联网

25 lawsuit   

n.诉讼，控诉

参考例句：

• They threatened him with a lawsuit.他们以诉讼威逼他。
• He was perpetually involving himself in this long lawsuit.他使自己无休止地卷入这场长时间的诉讼。

26 breaching   

攻破( breach的过去式 )； 破坏，违反

参考例句：

• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。
• Third, an agency can abuse its discretion by breaching certain principles of judge-made law. 第三，行政机关会因违反某些法官制定的法律原则而构成滥用自由裁量权。

27 disparage   

v.贬抑，轻蔑

参考例句：

• Your behaviour will disparage the whole family.你的行为将使全家丢脸。
• Never disparage yourself or minimize your strength or power.不要贬低你自己或降低你的力量或能力。