美国国家公共电台 NPR Fired By Trump, Preet Bharara Describes The Justice System He Served

 

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Preet Bharara has been thinking about the justice system. He's had time since President Trump² fired him as a U.S. attorney in Manhattan in 2017. Now Bharara has written a book about a justice system that is meant to protect the innocent even if some of the guilty get away.

PREET BHARARA: The system is the system. We could have a different system. We could have a Singaporean system. You know? We could have a system, in some other places, where you spit in the sidewalk, and there's no due process and you can be executed. That's not the system we have.

INSKEEP: It's a system he supports, even if the wealthy and powerful are especially likely to escape. Preet Bharara has written a book called "Doing Justice." In it, he barely mentions his experience with President Trump. Bharara has said elsewhere that the president placed inappropriate calls to him and then dismissed him. Instead of Trump, Bharara focuses on what he learned as the first Indian-American U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York with authority over many prominent cases. He describes famous convictions and also talks frankly³ of times when there were few convictions. No top-level Wall Street executives were prosecuted⁵ for the financial wrongdoing that triggered the Great Recession.

BHARARA: It's never a satisfactory answer to people who are rightly angry and prosecutors⁷ around the country who were victims of the financial crisis, too. But at the end of the day, career people didn't make a recommendation to bring a case against the head of a financial institution. Because there are all sorts of ways in which, you know, leaders of institutions and banks and other, you know, financial organizations immunize them self by relying on advice of counsel, by relying on accounts, who gave the blessing⁸ to do all these things. You have to prove what's in a person's mind.

INSKEEP: So wait a minute. A large-scale banker gets his institution involved in mortgage-backed securities, which we later discovered were incredibly risky⁹, far riskier¹⁰ than people seemed to realize, and also almost impossible to unwind, almost impossible to get out of. Total disaster. What were some of the ways that an executive or a financier in that position would have evaded¹¹ some kind of prosecution¹² for that?

BHARARA: Well, a number of ways. First of all, the person at the top - and we see this with organized crime families and we see these with other kinds of, you know, organizations, as well. The person at the top often has plausible¹³ deniability. Says, you know, I didn't tell you to defraud¹⁴ anybody. There were also many occasions on which a financial institution would ask for the legal advice or accounting¹⁵ advice of a third party and they would say, hey, will you bless this? And in some cases, you know, maybe it was sketchy¹⁶ to bless something. But...

INSKEEP: I asked the advice of a lawyer. I asked the advice of an accountant.

BHARARA: And they don't work for me. Yeah, I pay them a fee, but it has been recognized throughout our system that if some independent third party says, yeah, we're the experts, we're the professionals, you can do this thing, you can make this disclosure and it's sufficient, you're never going to get a jury. Unless they're violating their oath as jurors, you're never going to get a jury to believe that the first person that relied on the advice had the intent to commit a crime.

And that's true, by the way, for ordinary people who may have tax returns that they file and they say they relied on their accountant. Now, some people who say they were relying on their accountant commit fraud and take deductions¹⁷ that they shouldn't. And, you know, I used to give this example all the time. It's very hard to separate the ones who are in cahoots with their lawyers and not.

INSKEEP: Were you, as a prosecutor⁶, ever politically interfered¹⁸ with?

BHARARA: I was not. If I had been, I would have left the job earlier.

INSKEEP: Did you just describe an almost unique feature of the American system of justice?

BHARARA: Well, I don't (laughter) know if it's going to be forever unique in that way. We have this evidence now of President Trump making calls along these lines. And you get a lot of - I got a lot of criticism. Sometimes for being too soft, sometimes for being too harsh. I'm banned from Russia by Vladimir Putin because we successfully prosecuted an international arms dealer¹⁹ named Viktor Bout¹. I was personally attacked by President Erdogan of Turkey because we prosecuted somebody that, you know, he had connections to in an indirect way.

INSKEEP: I'm glad you mentioned Turkey's president. What happened in a different country, in a different system, when there was a prosecution of someone named Reza Zarrab, and it became a matter of political interest?

BHARARA: So Reza Zarrab was a gold trader, Iranian but also from Turkey, who was being prosecuted along with other folks in Turkey for various, you know, elements of misconduct. And those cases were made to go away because he was politically connected to two people who were close to Erdogan.

INSKEEP: What did President Erdogan of Turkey do to make that case go away?

BHARARA: Well, he exercised his power in a country that doesn't have the same constitutional protections that America has. He relieved judges of their duty. He removed prosecutors from office. He shut down media outlets²⁰. And the case went away. Literally²¹, the case was made to go away. Now, that is not something we've seen in this country and hopefully we'll never see in this country. And it's harder to accomplish in this country.

And then Reza Zarrab made the mistake of showing up at Disney World one day, and a young prosecutor from my office spearheaded a case that was an indictment²² under seal, Michael Lockard, against Reza Zarrab for sanctions evasion²³. So Zarrab shows up in Florida. He's under arrest. It becomes an overnight sensation in Turkey because, you know, much of secular²⁴ Turkey saw this as an example of American justice that can survive and work and prevail, even when Turkish justice would not.

INSKEEP: You note when Turkey failed to prosecute⁴ this man and then your office did prosecute this man that you became a kind of social media hero in Turkey. You got a huge following. Apparently²⁵...

BHARARA: Yeah. Completely undeserved. As I said, other people had done the work. But I became a symbol. And I say, look, the prosecutors are not saviors. They can't solve everything. It takes an involvement from a lot of other people. It just happens to be the case that it's very easy to put, you know, their hopes and hatreds²⁶ both, sometimes, in the figure of a prosecutor.

INSKEEP: Are people putting too much faith in Robert Mueller?

BHARARA: People should have a lot of faith in Robert Mueller. I have a ton of faith in Robert Mueller. I think, you know, he is not a deity²⁷ and he should not be put on a pedestal, but there's no one I can think of in the country who could have done this job as honorably as he's doing. And even he has been attacked and dragged through the mud and false accusations²⁸ made about him. What I'm saying is he's just a lawman acting²⁹ by the book trying to do what he thinks is correct with a band of really, really smart, I think, honorable people around him.

But if people think that America will be healed, or America will be better or these dangers to democracy will be fixed³⁰ if Bob Mueller recites, chapter and verse, a lot of misconduct on the part of the president then they're mistaken. 'Cause even if he does that, it goes to the Congress, and Congress has been fairly supine.

INSKEEP: Given your experience, should we be prepared for the possibility that even though Mueller has clearly found lots of criminal activity around the president, he may find no criminal activity by the president himself that he feels he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt?

BHARARA: Yes. We should be prepared for that. And we should also be - I'll say it. I've said it before. I'll say it again. And if that is the conclusion of Robert Mueller, I will say, so be it.

INSKEEP: Preet Bharara is the author of "Doing Justice." Thanks so much.

BHARARA: Thank you, Steve.

1 bout   

n.侵袭，发作；一次(阵，回)；拳击等比赛

参考例句：

• I was suffering with a bout of nerves.我感到一阵紧张。
• That bout of pneumonia enfeebled her.那次肺炎的发作使她虚弱了。

2 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

3 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

4 prosecute   

vt.告发；进行；vi.告发，起诉，作检察官

参考例句：

• I am trying my best to prosecute my duties.我正在尽力履行我的职责。
• Is there enough evidence to prosecute?有没有起诉的足够证据？

5 prosecuted   

a.被起诉的

参考例句：

• The editors are being prosecuted for obscenity. 编辑因刊载污秽文字而被起诉。
• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。

6 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

7 prosecutors   

检举人( prosecutor的名词复数 )； 告发人； 起诉人； 公诉人

参考例句：

• In some places,public prosecutors are elected rather than appointed. 在有些地方，检察官是经选举而非任命产生的。 来自口语例句
• You've been summoned to the Prosecutors' Office, 2 days later. 你在两天以后被宣到了检察官的办公室。

8 blessing   

n.祈神赐福；祷告；祝福，祝愿

参考例句：

• The blessing was said in Hebrew.祷告用了希伯来语。
• A double blessing has descended upon the house.双喜临门。

9 risky   

adj.有风险的，冒险的

参考例句：

• It may be risky but we will chance it anyhow.这可能有危险，但我们无论如何要冒一冒险。
• He is well aware how risky this investment is.他心里对这项投资的风险十分清楚。

10 riskier   

冒险的，危险的( risky的比较级 )

参考例句：

• Now they are starting to demand higher returns on riskier assets. 而今他们开始在风险更高的资产上要求更高的回报。
• The problem with that: RIM's business is getting riskier every quarter. 不过问题也随之而来：RIM面临的业务风险正逐季增大。

11 evaded   

逃避( evade的过去式和过去分词 )； 避开； 回避； 想不出

参考例句：

• For two weeks they evaded the press. 他们有两周一直避而不见记者。
• The lion evaded the hunter. 那狮子躲开了猎人。

12 prosecution   

n.起诉，告发，检举，执行，经营

参考例句：

• The Smiths brought a prosecution against the organizers.史密斯家对组织者们提出起诉。
• He attempts to rebut the assertion made by the prosecution witness.他试图反驳原告方证人所作的断言。

13 plausible   

adj.似真实的，似乎有理的，似乎可信的

参考例句：

• His story sounded plausible.他说的那番话似乎是真实的。
• Her story sounded perfectly plausible.她的说辞听起来言之有理。

14 defraud   

vt.欺骗，欺诈

参考例句：

• He passed himself off as the managing director to defraud the bank.他假冒总经理的名义诈骗银行。
• He is implicated in the scheme to defraud the government.他卷入了这起欺骗政府的阴谋。

15 accounting   

n.会计，会计学，借贷对照表

参考例句：

• A job fell vacant in the accounting department.财会部出现了一个空缺。
• There's an accounting error in this entry.这笔账目里有差错。

16 sketchy   

adj.写生的，写生风格的，概略的

参考例句：

• The material he supplied is too sketchy.他提供的材料过于简略。
• Details of what actually happened are still sketchy.对于已发生事实的详细情况知道的仍然有限。

17 deductions   

扣除( deduction的名词复数 )； 结论； 扣除的量； 推演

参考例句：

• Many of the older officers trusted agents sightings more than cryptanalysts'deductions. 许多年纪比较大的军官往往相信特务的发现，而不怎么相信密码分析员的推断。
• You know how you rush at things,jump to conclusions without proper deductions. 你知道你处理问题是多么仓促，毫无合适的演绎就仓促下结论。

18 interfered   

v.干预( interfere的过去式和过去分词 )；调停；妨碍；干涉

参考例句：

• Complete absorption in sports interfered with his studies. 专注于运动妨碍了他的学业。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• I am not going to be interfered with. 我不想别人干扰我的事情。 来自《简明英汉词典》

19 dealer   

n.商人，贩子

参考例句：

• The dealer spent hours bargaining for the painting.那个商人为购买那幅画花了几个小时讨价还价。
• The dealer reduced the price for cash down.这家商店对付现金的人减价优惠。

20 outlets   

n.出口( outlet的名词复数 )；经销店；插座；廉价经销店

参考例句：

• The dumping of foreign cotton blocked outlets for locally grown cotton. 外国棉花的倾销阻滞了当地生产的棉花的销路。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• They must find outlets for their products. 他们必须为自己的产品寻找出路。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

21 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

22 indictment   

n.起诉；诉状

参考例句：

• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。
• They issued an indictment against them.他们起诉了他们。

23 evasion   

n.逃避，偷漏(税)

参考例句：

• The movie star is in prison for tax evasion.那位影星因为逃税而坐牢。
• The act was passed as a safeguard against tax evasion.这项法案旨在防止逃税行为。

24 secular   

n.牧师，凡人；adj.世俗的，现世的，不朽的

参考例句：

• We live in an increasingly secular society.我们生活在一个日益非宗教的社会。
• Britain is a plural society in which the secular predominates.英国是个世俗主导的多元社会。

25 apparently   

adv.显然地；表面上，似乎

参考例句：

• An apparently blind alley leads suddenly into an open space.山穷水尽，豁然开朗。
• He was apparently much surprised at the news.他对那个消息显然感到十分惊异。

26 hatreds   

n.仇恨，憎恶( hatred的名词复数 )；厌恶的事

参考例句：

• He had more enimies and hatreds than anyone could easily guess from his thoughtful expression. 从他的思想表达方式难以被人猜透来看，他的敌人和仇家是不会多的。 来自辞典例句
• All the old and recent hatreds come to his mind. 旧恨新仇一起涌上他的心头。 来自互联网

27 deity   

n.神，神性；被奉若神明的人(或物)

参考例句：

• Many animals were seen as the manifestation of a deity.许多动物被看作神的化身。
• The deity was hidden in the deepest recesses of the temple.神藏在庙宇壁龛的最深处。

28 accusations   

n.指责( accusation的名词复数 )；指控；控告；（被告发、控告的）罪名

参考例句：

• There were accusations of plagiarism. 曾有过关于剽窃的指控。
• He remained unruffled by their accusations. 对于他们的指控他处之泰然。

29 acting   

n.演戏，行为，假装；adj.代理的，临时的，演出用的

参考例句：

• Ignore her,she's just acting.别理她，她只是假装的。
• During the seventies,her acting career was in eclipse.在七十年代，她的表演生涯黯然失色。

30 fixed   

adj.固定的，不变的，准备好的；(计算机)固定的

参考例句：

• Have you two fixed on a date for the wedding yet?你们俩选定婚期了吗？
• Once the aim is fixed,we should not change it arbitrarily.目标一旦确定，我们就不应该随意改变。