美国国家公共电台 NPR--Trump should face justice just like anyone else would, argues Rep. Raskin

Trump¹ should face justice just like anyone else would, argues Rep. Raskin

Transcript²

After more than a year of interviewing witnesses, gathering³ evidence and holding public meetings, the House select committee concluded its final hearing on Monday by referring former President Donald Trump for four criminal charges.

The panel voted unanimously to refer Trump and others to the Justice Department on charges of obstruction⁴ of an official proceeding⁵, conspiracy⁶ to defraud⁷ the United States, conspiracy to make a false statement and conspiracy to defraud the U.S. by assisting, aiding or comforting those involved in an insurrection.

It also referred four fellow members of Congress, all Republicans, to the House ethics⁸ committee for failing to comply with subpoenas¹⁰. They are Reps. Kevin McCarthy of California, Jim Jordan of Ohio, Scott Perry of Pennsylvania and Andy Biggs of Arizona.

It's unlikely the ethics committee would take these on as Republicans take control of the House in January (and McCarthy is poised¹¹ to be the next speaker).

But Rep. Jamie Raskin, D-Md., — a member of the Jan. 6 panel who previously¹² served as the lead manager in Trump's second impeachment¹³ trial — tells Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep that ignoring or burying those recommendations would set "a terrible precedent¹⁴ for the future."

"It's of special concern when there's an attempt to overthrow¹⁵ our election and essentially¹⁶ subdue¹⁷ our constitutional order and have someone seize the presidency¹⁸ who didn't win it," he says. "And if members of Congress have knowledge of that and may have been involved in it but refuse to say anything about it, we're setting a precedent for future attacks on democracy itself. And that's really the burden of our committee, to make sure that we prevent coups¹⁹, insurrections, electoral sabotage²⁰ and political violence in the future."

As for Trump, who has already announced his bid for reelection, Raskin says the question is not whether potentially prosecuting²¹ a former president is the right thing for the country, but whether or not he engaged in criminal conduct.

Trump satisfies the elements for obstructing²² an official proceeding, Raskin says, adding, "that was the whole purpose of his scheme and he succeeded in interrupting it for four hours, the only time that's ever happened in American history."

He adds that the former president also engaged in a conspiracy to make false statements and defraud the U.S. (through the fake electors scheme specifically), and that he "acted to incite²³, assist and give aid and comfort to an insurrection." And it's based on those facts and laws that Trump should be held accountable, Raskin argues.

"In a society where all of us are treated equally under the law, the fact that he's a former president would make no more difference than the fact that he's a former businessman or TV star," he says.

Raskin spoke²⁴ to Morning Edition about the committee's conclusions, what they mean for the public and what could happen next.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

On why Trump bears responsibility

More than 900 people have been prosecuted²⁵ for crimes like assaulting federal officers, destroying federal property, seditious conspiracy, attempt to overthrow or put down the government. Why should the foot soldiers be going to jail and not the ringleaders and the masterminds of this scheme to defeat American democracy? Look, if Donald Trump had succeeded, he'd be bragging²⁶ about it, how he was the one who came up with the whole plan. It's very clear to those of us who've given two years of our lives to studying this that none of it would have happened without the will of Donald Trump.

On what he hopes the new ethics committee will do

The ethics committee is split between Democrats²⁷ and Republicans and they're facing a pretty profound question, which is: If members of Congress get subpoenaed²⁸ to testify about their knowledge of a criminal offense²⁹, and this one an attack on the constitution itself, can they just blow off the subpoena⁹? We're not able to take them to court, likely because of the Speech or Debate Clause which says that we can't hold people to account who are members of Congress outside of Congress; We have to hold them to account within the channels of Congress. And so all we really could do is refer them to the ethics committee. And I trust and hope that the members of the ethics committee on a bipartisan basis will consider this very serious problem.

On the possibility of House Republicans investigating his committee

The work of our committee is an open book. We want the whole country to see all of the transcripts³⁰, all of the interviews, everything that took place, so we're going to try to make it public as quickly as possible. Obviously, someone with a jaundiced eye could go in and try to look for something else, but we're used to that at this point and we really do feel like we're standing³¹ up for democracy for future generations.

On whether he thinks the report has altered public understanding of Jan. 6

I think most of the public understands that Donald Trump's own attorney general said that his claims in the big lie are, quote, "BS" ... They understand that Donald Trump wanted to wave in all of the armed people that he was perfectly³² aware were in the crowd. They understand that he said, "You go and fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore." They understand that he took no concern to try to protect us against the mob that he unleashed³³ against us — so he didn't call the Army, he didn't call the National Guard, he sat there in his little dining room watching this unfold like a perfect bystander or someone from another country or another planet. He showed no interest in trying to defend us. I think that story is indelibly imprinted³⁴ in the public imagination.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 gathering   

n.集会，聚会，聚集

参考例句：

• He called on Mr. White to speak at the gathering.他请怀特先生在集会上讲话。
• He is on the wing gathering material for his novels.他正忙于为他的小说收集资料。

4 obstruction   

n.阻塞，堵塞；障碍物

参考例句：

• She was charged with obstruction of a police officer in the execution of his duty.她被指控妨碍警察执行任务。
• The road was cleared from obstruction.那条路已被清除了障碍。

5 proceeding   

n.行动，进行，(pl.)会议录，学报

参考例句：

• This train is now proceeding from Paris to London.这次列车从巴黎开往伦敦。
• The work is proceeding briskly.工作很有生气地进展着。

6 conspiracy   

n.阴谋，密谋，共谋

参考例句：

• The men were found guilty of conspiracy to murder.这些人被裁决犯有阴谋杀人罪。
• He claimed that it was all a conspiracy against him.他声称这一切都是一场针对他的阴谋。

7 defraud   

vt.欺骗，欺诈

参考例句：

• He passed himself off as the managing director to defraud the bank.他假冒总经理的名义诈骗银行。
• He is implicated in the scheme to defraud the government.他卷入了这起欺骗政府的阴谋。

8 ethics   

n.伦理学；伦理观，道德标准

参考例句：

• The ethics of his profession don't permit him to do that.他的职业道德不允许他那样做。
• Personal ethics and professional ethics sometimes conflict.个人道德和职业道德有时会相互抵触。

9 subpoena   

n.（法律）传票；v.传讯

参考例句：

• He was brought up to court with a subpoena.他接到传讯，来到法庭上。
• Select committees have the power to subpoena witnesses.特别委员会有权传唤证人。

10 subpoenas   

n.（传唤出庭的）传票( subpoena的名词复数 )v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• My company has complied with committee subpoenas by supplying documents confirming all that I have said. 本公司按照委员会的要求，提供了能够证实我刚才发言的文件。 来自辞典例句
• Congressional Investigations: Subpoenas and Contempt Power. Report for Congress April 2, 2003. 金灿荣：《美国国会的监督功能》，载《教学与研究》2003年第2期。 来自互联网

11 poised   

a.摆好姿势不动的

参考例句：

• The hawk poised in mid-air ready to swoop. 老鹰在半空中盘旋，准备俯冲。
• Tina was tense, her hand poised over the telephone. 蒂娜心情紧张，手悬在电话机上。

12 previously   

adv.以前，先前（地）

参考例句：

• The bicycle tyre blew out at a previously damaged point.自行车胎在以前损坏过的地方又爆开了。
• Let me digress for a moment and explain what had happened previously.让我岔开一会儿，解释原先发生了什么。

13 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

14 precedent   

n.先例，前例；惯例；adj.在前的，在先的

参考例句：

• Is there a precedent for what you want me to do?你要我做的事有前例可援吗？
• This is a wonderful achievement without precedent in Chinese history.这是中国历史上亘古未有的奇绩。

15 overthrow   

v.推翻，打倒，颠覆；n.推翻，瓦解，颠覆

参考例句：

• After the overthrow of the government,the country was in chaos.政府被推翻后，这个国家处于混乱中。
• The overthrow of his plans left him much discouraged.他的计划的失败使得他很气馁。

16 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

17 subdue   

vt.制服，使顺从，征服；抑制，克制

参考例句：

• She tried to subdue her anger.她尽力压制自己的怒火。
• He forced himself to subdue and overcome his fears.他强迫自己克制并战胜恐惧心理。

18 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

19 coups   

n.意外而成功的行动( coup的名词复数 )；政变；努力办到难办的事

参考例句：

• China has seen many political coups within the ruling class. 中国统治阶级内部发生过很多政变。 来自互联网
• Thailand has had eighteen coups or coup attendance since nineteen thirty-two. 泰国1932年以来有18次政变或参加政变。 来自互联网

20 sabotage   

n.怠工，破坏活动，破坏；v.从事破坏活动，妨害，破坏

参考例句：

• They tried to sabotage my birthday party.他们企图破坏我的生日晚会。
• The fire at the factory was caused by sabotage.那家工厂的火灾是有人蓄意破坏引起的。

21 prosecuting   

检举、告发某人( prosecute的现在分词 )； 对某人提起公诉； 继续从事（某事物）； 担任控方律师

参考例句：

• The witness was cross-examined by the prosecuting counsel. 证人接受控方律师的盘问。
• Every point made by the prosecuting attorney was telling. 检查官提出的每一点都是有力的。

22 obstructing   

阻塞( obstruct的现在分词 )； 堵塞； 阻碍； 阻止

参考例句：

• You can't park here, you're obstructing my driveway. 你不能在这里停车，你挡住了我家的车道。
• He was charged for obstructing the highway. 他因阻碍交通而受控告。

23 incite   

v.引起，激动，煽动

参考例句：

• I wanted to point out he was a very good speaker, and could incite a crowd.我想说明他曾是一个非常出色的演讲家，非常会调动群众的情绪。
• Just a few words will incite him into action.他只需几句话一将，就会干。

24 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

25 prosecuted   

a.被起诉的

参考例句：

• The editors are being prosecuted for obscenity. 编辑因刊载污秽文字而被起诉。
• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。

26 bragging   

v.自夸，吹嘘( brag的现在分词 )；大话

参考例句：

• He's always bragging about his prowess as a cricketer. 他总是吹嘘自己板球水平高超。 来自辞典例句
• Now you're bragging, darling. You know you don't need to brag. 这就是夸口，亲爱的。你明知道你不必吹。 来自辞典例句

27 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

28 subpoenaed   

v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The court subpoenaed her to appear as a witness. 法庭传唤她出庭作证。
• The finance director is subpoenaed by prosecution. 财务经理被检查机关传讯。 来自《简明英汉词典》

29 offense   

n.犯规，违法行为；冒犯，得罪

参考例句：

• I hope you will not take any offense at my words. 对我讲的话请别见怪。
• His words gave great offense to everybody present.他的发言冲犯了在场的所有人。

30 transcripts   

n.抄本（ transcript的名词复数 ）；转写本；文字本；副本

参考例句：

• Like mRNA, both tRNA and rRNA are transcripts of chromosomal DNA. tRNA及rRNA同mRNA一样，都是染色体DNA的转录产物。 来自辞典例句
• You can't take the transfer students'exam without your transcripts. 没有成绩证明书，你就不能参加转学考试。 来自辞典例句

31 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

32 perfectly   

adv.完美地，无可非议地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The witnesses were each perfectly certain of what they said.证人们个个对自己所说的话十分肯定。
• Everything that we're doing is all perfectly above board.我们做的每件事情都是光明正大的。

33 unleashed   

v.把（感情、力量等）释放出来，发泄( unleash的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The government's proposals unleashed a storm of protest in the press. 政府的提案引发了新闻界的抗议浪潮。
• The full force of his rage was unleashed against me. 他把所有的怒气都发泄在我身上。 来自《简明英汉词典》

34 imprinted   

v.盖印（imprint的过去式与过去分词形式）

参考例句：

• The terrible scenes were indelibly imprinted on his mind. 那些恐怖场面深深地铭刻在他的心中。
• The scene was imprinted on my mind. 那个场面铭刻在我的心中。 来自《简明英汉词典》