美国国家公共电台 NPR--An exit interview with outgoing Republican Sen. Ben Sasse of Nebraska

An exit interview with outgoing Republican Sen. Ben Sasse of Nebraska

Transcript¹

As a new Congress began work on Monday, Republican Sen. Ben Sasse of Nebraska said goodbye. NPR's Steve Inskeep talked to Sasse about when government is effective, and why he retired² from the Senate.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

As a new Congress began yesterday, Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse said goodbye. The Republican retired from the Senate at age 50. His relatively³ short career in Washington covered a lot of history. In 2014, he was one of the newly elected Republican senators who captured that body from President Barack Obama's Democratic Party.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

BARACK OBAMA: Obviously, Republicans had a good night, and they deserve credit for running good campaigns.

INSKEEP: Sasse was known as a Tea Party candidate then, sharply critical of Obama's policies. He later criticized Obama's successor, refusing to endorse⁵ Donald Trump⁶ in 2016 and voting for his impeachment⁷ after Trump tried to overturn a Democratic election.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

BEN SASSE: You don't lie to the American people, and that's what's been going on. The American people have been lied to, chiefly by Donald Trump, and lies have consequences, and those consequences are now found in five dead Americans and a Capitol building that's in shambles⁸.

INSKEEP: That was one of several interviews the senator gave on this program over time, where he critiqued Washington as dysfunctional and devoid⁹ of ideas. Now he becomes president of the University of Florida. And as he prepared to leave the Senate, he came back on the line. Sasse recalled work he had done that was outside of the news, like a group studying cyberwarfare. That work focused on the future, and it was modeled on meetings from the past - U.S. strategy sessions early in the Cold War.

SASSE: When Eisenhower became president in early 1953, obviously, we had won World War II having to use nuclear weapons, but we didn't have clarity about offensive and defensive¹⁰ doctrine¹¹. And so what we tried to do is use the commission that Eisenhower stood up in 1953 as an analog¹² for the new era of asymmetric¹³ cyberwar. We don't have offensive doctrine. We don't have defensive doctrine. We don't have human capital. We didn't have sufficient strategy. So we put together a 9/11-style commission of 14 commissioners¹⁴ that met for 2 1/2 years. And I think that things like the White House now having a national cyber office that helps coordinate¹⁵ strategy across all federal agencies but also with the private sector¹⁶ is a pretty key way that we've been transforming the nature of how we fight the next generation's war.

INSKEEP: Is that the side of the work that you preferred, as opposed to what made the news?

SASSE: Oh, by far. The Senate Intelligence Committee is the most important committee in the Congress, I think, by substance, but it's also one of the only functioning committees in the Congress. Mostly it's because we meet in a bunker, and there aren't cameras present. So there's no reward for people being jackasses. So that's a positive. But it also is kind of a cautionary tale about how little of the institution functions well in the places where cameras are ever present, and therefore, people are preening¹⁷ like they're, you know, 14-year-olds desperate for attention.

INSKEEP: I don't want to suggest that we all agree on most things 'cause I think, as a country, we generally don't. But do you think the blue-versus-red divide is overdrawn¹⁸, nonexistent? What's the word for it?

SASSE: It's radically¹⁹ overdrawn and overstated. I think we're a bell-curve country on most issues. The overwhelming majority of Americans are moderates on politics. Now, again, I don't mean chiefly in terms of their policy preferences; I mean chiefly in terms of what role they want politics to play in life. They have a sort of one- or sometimes two-cheers-for-politics view of life. They're - almost no one normal is a three-cheers-for-politics kind of person. And yet the loudest people on the right and the left who get all the attention right now are all people screaming that the end of time is going to come if somebody wins an election that doesn't share their tribal²⁰ policy preferences at the next November, and the vast majority of the American public doesn't believe that.

INSKEEP: There are a number of Republicans specifically in recent years who have left their seats and, while doing so, have said in one way or another, I don't feel like this party is my party anymore; It doesn't seem to stand for what I believe I should be standing²¹ for. Are you one of those people?

SASSE: I think both of these parties are very small minority parties right now. What we have is a world where we're getting a lot more information from a lot of places. When we went - I'm the son of a football coach. So when we went from three to four channels, getting an extra college football game on Saturday was pretty great. But when you go from four channels to 1,500 or 2,000 channels, what happens is there are no large outlets²² left anymore. Everything is narrow and deep, doing audience service and doing confirmation²³ bias²⁴. And so you have lots of politicians that are confused that they might actually represent lots of people when these legacy²⁵ brands, Republican and Democrat⁴, are really sort of smoking old fumes²⁶.

INSKEEP: OK, so let me ask you a trick question now. You're leaving the Senate and becoming the president of the University of Florida. Are you leaving politics then?

SASSE: (Laughter) I have had many colleagues tell me that, though I'm not politically addicted²⁷, I must be a glutton²⁸ for punishment, going to a sometimes much more political job. I think that the University of Florida is just a spectacular institution, and this is a glorious moment in that state. So I'm a historian by training, as you know, Steve. Teaching history seminars again is going to be great. But as somebody from the breadbasket of the world, getting to be in a land grant institution that does just amazing stuff in ag and coming ag-tech is pretty exciting. There are 67 counties in Florida, and in two-thirds of those counties, agriculture is the No. 1 economic driver, and the University of Florida is the most important institution in all those counties. So I'm super excited about this.

INSKEEP: The trustees who hired you said you had a, quote, "bold vision for higher education." What is it?

SASSE: That we ought to think that people coming of age ought to be able to appreciate lots and lots of different debates and perspectives. It's what you and I have been talking a lot about, the divide between pluralism and political zealotry in Americans' public square. But on our campuses, we often do the same thing now, which is we try to equate²⁹ speech that you might differ with as violence. That's fundamentally anti-American. We try to say that we need to create safe spaces for people. No, we don't. We need to create spaces where we respect each other so much and we believe so deeply in human dignity that you want to understand people who have different perspectives than you do.

INSKEEP: Are you saying that if someone comes to speak at the University of Florida and you're told this person is an extremist or just a political provocateur, you're going to say, let them speak, argue with them?

SASSE: I think you know pretty well, Steve, that I don't have a lot of tolerance³⁰ for political provocateurs, but the range of debate that should happen on a campus should be a lot more interesting than it is right now.

INSKEEP: You mentioned the frustration³¹ with people, and the way you use the language, I presume you mean people on the left who try to create safe spaces or equate speech with violence. On the other side, of course, there are government officials, including in Florida, who have tried to crack down on what they see as critical race theory or define as critical race theory. Do you expect professors to advance ideas at your university on society, on race, even on the economy, regardless of where that goes?

SASSE: I - advance ideas is sort of an interesting verb, I guess. I - what I want is the students who graduate from the University of Florida to have wrestled³² with a whole bunch of different ideas that they didn't already have when they got there, and they should come from all over the political and philosophical³³ spectrum³⁴. Education, properly understood, isn't primarily about transmitting information; it's about learning how to humbly³⁵ and meaningfully engage ideas you didn't already hold.

INSKEEP: Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska, it's been a pleasure talking with you over the years. And good luck in your new job.

SASSE: Let's keep talking.

INSKEEP: I'd like that. Thank you.

SASSE: Thanks, Steve.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 retired   

adj.隐退的，退休的，退役的

参考例句：

• The old man retired to the country for rest.这位老人下乡休息去了。
• Many retired people take up gardening as a hobby.许多退休的人都以从事园艺为嗜好。

3 relatively   

adv.比较...地，相对地

参考例句：

• The rabbit is a relatively recent introduction in Australia.兔子是相对较新引入澳大利亚的物种。
• The operation was relatively painless.手术相对来说不痛。

4 democrat   

n.民主主义者，民主人士；民主党党员

参考例句：

• The Democrat and the Public criticized each other.民主党人和共和党人互相攻击。
• About two years later,he was defeated by Democrat Jimmy Carter.大约两年后，他被民主党人杰米卡特击败。

5 endorse   

vt.(支票、汇票等)背书，背署；批注；同意

参考例句：

• No one is foolish enough to endorse it.没有哪个人会傻得赞成它。
• I fully endorse your opinions on this subject.我完全拥护你对此课题的主张。

6 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

7 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

8 shambles   

n.混乱之处；废墟

参考例句：

• My room is a shambles.我房间里乱七八糟。
• The fighting reduced the city to a shambles.这场战斗使这座城市成了一片废墟。

9 devoid   

adj.全无的，缺乏的

参考例句：

• He is completely devoid of humour.他十分缺乏幽默。
• The house is totally devoid of furniture.这所房子里什么家具都没有。

10 defensive   

adj.防御的；防卫的；防守的

参考例句：

• Their questions about the money put her on the defensive.他们问到钱的问题，使她警觉起来。
• The Government hastily organized defensive measures against the raids.政府急忙布置了防卫措施抵御空袭。

11 doctrine   

n.教义；主义；学说

参考例句：

• He was impelled to proclaim his doctrine.他不得不宣扬他的教义。
• The council met to consider changes to doctrine.宗教议会开会考虑更改教义。

12 analog   

n.类似物，模拟

参考例句：

• The analog signal contains high-frequency video information,which helps make up the picture.模拟信号包括有助于构成图像的高频视频信息。
• The analog computer measures continuously,without proceeding step by step.模拟计算机不是一步一步地进行，而是连续地进行量度。

13 asymmetric   

a.不对称的

参考例句：

• Most people's faces are asymmetric. 大多数人的脸不对称。
• We have made no reference to asymmetric carbon atoms. 我们未曾涉及不对称碳原子。

14 commissioners   

n.专员( commissioner的名词复数 )；长官；委员；政府部门的长官

参考例句：

• The Commissioners of Inland Revenue control British national taxes. 国家税收委员管理英国全国的税收。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The SEC has five commissioners who are appointed by the president. 证券交易委员会有５名委员，是由总统任命的。 来自英汉非文学 - 政府文件

15 coordinate   

adj.同等的，协调的；n.同等者；vt.协作，协调

参考例句：

• You must coordinate what you said with what you did.你必须使你的言行一致。
• Maybe we can coordinate the relation of them.或许我们可以调和他们之间的关系。

16 sector   

n.部门，部分；防御地段，防区；扇形

参考例句：

• The export sector will aid the economic recovery. 出口产业将促进经济复苏。
• The enemy have attacked the British sector.敌人已进攻英国防区。

17 preening   

v.（鸟）用嘴整理（羽毛）( preen的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Will you stop preening yourself in front of the mirror? 你别对着镜子打扮个没完行不行？
• She was fading, while he was still preening himself in his elegance and youth. 她已显老，而他却仍然打扮成翩翩佳公子。 来自英汉文学 - 嘉莉妹妹

18 overdrawn   

透支( overdraw的过去分词 )； (overdraw的过去分词)

参考例句：

• The characters in this novel are rather overdrawn. 这本小说中的人物描写得有些夸张。
• His account of the bank robbery is somewhat overdrawn. 他对银行抢案的叙述有些夸张。

19 radically   

ad.根本地，本质地

参考例句：

• I think we may have to rethink our policies fairly radically. 我认为我们可能要对我们的政策进行根本的反思。
• The health service must be radically reformed. 公共医疗卫生服务必须进行彻底改革。

20 tribal   

adj.部族的，种族的

参考例句：

• He became skilled in several tribal lingoes.他精通几种部族的语言。
• The country was torn apart by fierce tribal hostilities.那个国家被部落间的激烈冲突弄得四分五裂。

21 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

22 outlets   

n.出口( outlet的名词复数 )；经销店；插座；廉价经销店

参考例句：

• The dumping of foreign cotton blocked outlets for locally grown cotton. 外国棉花的倾销阻滞了当地生产的棉花的销路。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• They must find outlets for their products. 他们必须为自己的产品寻找出路。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

23 confirmation   

n.证实，确认，批准

参考例句：

• We are waiting for confirmation of the news.我们正在等待证实那个消息。
• We need confirmation in writing before we can send your order out.给你们发送订购的货物之前，我们需要书面确认。

24 bias   

n.偏见，偏心，偏袒；vt.使有偏见

参考例句：

• They are accusing the teacher of political bias in his marking.他们在指控那名教师打分数有政治偏见。
• He had a bias toward the plan.他对这项计划有偏见。

25 legacy   

n.遗产，遗赠；先人(或过去)留下的东西

参考例句：

• They are the most precious cultural legacy our forefathers left.它们是我们祖先留下来的最宝贵的文化遗产。
• He thinks the legacy is a gift from the Gods.他认为这笔遗产是天赐之物。

26 fumes   

n.(强烈而刺激的)气味，气体

参考例句：

• The health of our children is being endangered by exhaust fumes. 我们孩子们的健康正受到排放出的废气的损害。
• Exhaust fumes are bad for your health. 废气对健康有害。

27 addicted   

adj.沉溺于....的，对...上瘾的

参考例句：

• He was addicted to heroin at the age of 17.他17岁的时候对海洛因上了瘾。
• She's become addicted to love stories.她迷上了爱情小说。

28 glutton   

n.贪食者，好食者

参考例句：

• She's a glutton for work.She stays late every evening.她是个工作狂，每天都很晚才下班。
• He is just a glutton.He is addicted to excessive eating.他就是个老饕，贪吃成性。

29 equate   

v.同等看待，使相等

参考例句：

• You can't equate passing examination and being intelligent.你不能把考试及格看成是聪明。
• You cannot equate his poems with his plays.你不可以把他的诗歌和他的剧本相提并论。

30 tolerance   

n.宽容；容忍，忍受；耐药力；公差

参考例句：

• Tolerance is one of his strengths.宽容是他的一个优点。
• Human beings have limited tolerance of noise.人类对噪音的忍耐力有限。

31 frustration   

n.挫折，失败，失效，落空

参考例句：

• He had to fight back tears of frustration.他不得不强忍住失意的泪水。
• He beat his hands on the steering wheel in frustration.他沮丧地用手打了几下方向盘。

32 wrestled   

v.（与某人）搏斗( wrestle的过去式和过去分词 )；扭成一团；扭打；（与…）摔跤

参考例句：

• As a boy he had boxed and wrestled. 他小的时候又是打拳又是摔跤。
• Armed guards wrestled with the intruder. 武装警卫和闯入者扭打起来。 来自《简明英汉词典》

33 philosophical   

adj.哲学家的，哲学上的，达观的

参考例句：

• The teacher couldn't answer the philosophical problem.老师不能解答这个哲学问题。
• She is very philosophical about her bad luck.她对自己的不幸看得很开。

34 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。

35 humbly   

adv. 恭顺地，谦卑地

参考例句：

• We humbly beg Your Majesty to show mercy. 我们恳请陛下发发慈悲。
• "You must be right, Sir,'said John humbly. “你一定是对的，先生，”约翰恭顺地说道。