美国国家公共电台 NPR How High School Debate In 1990s Kansas Explains The Present: A Novel Argument

 

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

In high schools and colleges across the country, you can hear some version of this.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

DANNY HENSEL, BYLINE¹: (Unintelligible).

SHAPIRO: Debaters making their points at such a machine gun speed that the words become almost incomprehensible to the untrained ear. The author Ben Lerner is well-trained. He competed as a policy debater during high school in the 1990s in Topeka, Kan. He was also the national champion in extemporaneous² speaking, and the main character in his new novel "The Topeka School" participates in both of those activities. Ben Lerner, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

BEN LERNER: Thanks for having me, Ari.

SHAPIRO: Beyond debate, talking seems really central to everybody's life in this book. I mean, the main character is a debater. His parents are psychologists. They do talk therapy and language research. So why did you want to make that act of speech so central to this novel?

LERNER: The young Adam Gordon, who's, you know, a graduating senior when most of the book takes place, is kind of torn between these different regimes of talk. Like, on the one hand, he has these therapist parents who work at this international psychiatric clinic called The Foundation, and that's an institution that runs on talk, right? I mean, therapy depends upon the possibilities of expression. And then on the other hand, he's in a kind of red state masculinist culture, where talking, unless you're talking trash, is often seen to be a kind of sign of weakness.

SHAPIRO: Right.

LERNER: And then policy debate - that kind of weaponized eloquence³ of policy debate and some other forms of speech become his way of trying to kind of pass as a tough guy, to once be the verbal kid of these psychologists but also to be kind of, you know, tough enough not to be attacked for it.

SHAPIRO: And at night, he kind of freestyle raps with his friends, which is maybe a little embarrassing, but he's also really good at it.

LERNER: Yeah. I mean, it's very embarrassing. I mean, the book both wants to ruthlessly mock these kinds of extreme speech and, like, the cultural appropriation⁴ of these white, middle-class kids freestyling and freestyling totally inapplicable cliches from the rap videos they're watching, but it also wants to be alive to, like, the glimmer⁵ of possibility, even in those busted⁶ forms of speech. Like, the moments...

SHAPIRO: What do you mean, the glimmer of possibility?

LERNER: Well, I mean, Adam has these instances of kind of transport where - whether it's speed in debate or it's freestyling - where he feels like he's no longer speaking the language, but the language is speaking him. He feels like he kind of dissolves into prosody⁷ or rhythm or poetry or flow, and the book wants to argue that those are real moments of possibility where we re-encounter the miracle of language and the possibility of building a new language out of the limits of this one.

SHAPIRO: But whereas you mentioned the limits of this one, the book has so much garbled⁸ language. I mean, not only that, like, rapid-fire machine gun speech which sounds like gibberish to me, but there's a character who has a concussion⁹. Another has dementia. A bad phone line plays a major point in the plot. Even a reference to somebody using sign language that is just nonsense gestures - so why is this theme of mangling¹⁰, garbling¹¹ language also so important?

LERNER: Well, because I think we live in a moment of a total regression to fascistic unreason in our political speech. I mean, I don't know how to overstate it.

SHAPIRO: I mean, not to put too fine a point on it...

LERNER: Exactly. So, I mean, it's - I'm trying to think in part about the genealogy¹² of the present and...

SHAPIRO: Like where the seeds of that came from.

LERNER: Where the seeds of that came from - and yeah, and then also for the book to offer some counter models, like Adam's mother's modes of listening or some other voices in the book that are not speaking gibberish.

SHAPIRO: But I'm curious about your application of the gibberish in the book to our present-day political discourse¹³. Are you saying that our political failure is a failure of speech?

LERNER: Well, in part, absolutely. I mean, I guess, you know, like, the spread, that speed in debate that you played that clip of to me...

SHAPIRO: The spread is a debate term for, like...

LERNER: That's right.

SHAPIRO: ...Trying to get as many points as you can into a certain amount of time. Yeah.

LERNER: Exactly. I mean, I think to a certain degree, that is a metaphor¹⁴ for the overload¹⁵ of the present. I mean, Donald Trump¹⁶ speaks very slowly. It's kind of agrammatical (ph), halting, racist¹⁷ signaling.

SHAPIRO: Look. I was White House correspondent for five years, and Obama spoke¹⁸ painfully slowly, too.

LERNER: That's true.

SHAPIRO: It might have been a very different kind of speech, but it was so slow.

LERNER: That's true. I mean, there's the slowness of political speech on the one hand, and then there's the speed of nano-trading and the 24-hour news cycle on the other hand. And I think one of the things that the Trump White House has learned is that one scandal is really dangerous, right? If you have, like, one Watergate, that outrages¹⁹ people, but if you have a thousand scandals a day that - each one that seems, like, world historical, it's totally incapacitating. So I wanted the spread also to be a metaphor for the way that we're kind of - yeah - overloaded²⁰ in our daily lives with the language of information.

SHAPIRO: So tell me about the moment you realized that the best way to write about our present-day political life was to write about Topeka in the 1990s, a world that you grew up in.

LERNER: Well, I was really interested how, in the '90s, there was this discourse circulating, at least amongst the pundit²¹ class, of the end of history.

SHAPIRO: Oh, like, we solved everything.

LERNER: Exactly.

SHAPIRO: The Berlin Wall is down.

LERNER: Exactly.

SHAPIRO: The Soviet²² Union has crumbled²³. Everything's going to be great.

LERNER: Right. And when Bill Clinton, the kind of, like, cool baby boomer, trounced Bob Dole²⁴, it was like, you know, now it's just the advent²⁵ of liberal technocrats²⁶, and that ideology²⁷ is over, et cetera. And I wanted to remember - I mean, that was a white fantasy, and it was always a fantasy. But I wanted to remember kind of what it was like to be coming of age when that discourse was circulating - and not just amongst debaters, but remember it from, you know, the disaster and the possibilities of the present, where Adam Gordon is no longer a kid. He's a father of two young children, and he's trying to figure out how to speak honorably and how to transmit things to his own daughters that are not the double-speak that's described elsewhere in the book.

SHAPIRO: At one point, the book refers to the vaguely²⁸ imagined east coast city from which your Topeka experiences would be recounted with great irony²⁹. Is that what you're doing here?

LERNER: No. It's the opposite. I mean, right - so the young Adam has this fantasy. Like, the way he tries to be cool is he has this belief that in the future, he's going to look back as some kind of, like, person on the coast and think, oh, everything in Topeka was just rehearsal³⁰ for this more intense life or whatever. But what the book actually does - I mean, the irony that's lost on the younger Adam is that the older Adam is looking back and taking those experiences quite seriously, not at all ironically, seeing them as formative, seeing them as complicated, realizing that there were all kinds of things happening in his family and the world around him that he wasn't sufficiently³¹ attuned³² to.

SHAPIRO: So if part of your exploration of talking and its limitations is to expose the need for, as you put it, a new language, can you describe what that new language is, what it looks and sounds like, what you're hoping for?

LERNER: No, not really.

SHAPIRO: (Laughter).

LERNER: Like, that is to say, I mean, I think - I mean, there are people doing incredible work, obviously. I mean, Trumpism isn't total, and I think, you know, literature is one small effort to advance a counter language to the languages of exploitation. And so no, I don't know what the language would look like, but I think the good thing - maybe the only good thing - about the way the language is dying in Trump's mouth is that there's no going back to a kind of neoliberal political discourse that puts a humane³³ face on extreme capitalist exploitation or whatever.

So the book arrives at that point of not going back, and the book doesn't pretend to know how we should speak going forward, but it does try to model modes of listening and engagement that are other to the dominant³⁴ discourses³⁵ of the day.

SHAPIRO: Ben Lerner, thanks for talking with us.

LERNER: Thank you very much for having me.

SHAPIRO: His new novel is called "The Topeka School." And we should note that debater you heard at the beginning of the segment - that was our producer Danny Hensel.

1 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

2 extemporaneous   

adj.即席的，一时的

参考例句：

• She made an extemporaneous speech on the ceremony.她在典礼上做了一次即兴演讲。
• Nixon carried away with it all,delivered his extemporaneous toast.尼克松对一切都很满意，颇有些情不自禁地发表了他的即席祝酒词。

3 eloquence   

n.雄辩；口才，修辞

参考例句：

• I am afraid my eloquence did not avail against the facts.恐怕我的雄辩也无补于事实了。
• The people were charmed by his eloquence.人们被他的口才迷住了。

4 appropriation   

n.拨款，批准支出

参考例句：

• Our government made an appropriation for the project.我们的政府为那个工程拨出一笔款项。
• The council could note an annual appropriation for this service.议会可以为这项服务表决给他一笔常年经费。

5 glimmer   

v.发出闪烁的微光；n.微光，微弱的闪光

参考例句：

• I looked at her and felt a glimmer of hope.我注视她，感到了一线希望。
• A glimmer of amusement showed in her eyes.她的眼中露出一丝笑意。

6 busted   

adj. 破产了的，失败了的，被降级的，被逮捕的，被抓到的 动词bust的过去式和过去分词

参考例句：

• You are so busted! 你被当场逮住了！
• It was money troubles that busted up their marriage. 是金钱纠纷使他们的婚姻破裂了。

7 prosody   

n.诗体论，作诗法

参考例句：

• Both developed doctrine of prosody.他们作诗都有自己的理论。
• The prosody of Beowulf is based on alliteration,not end rhymes.《贝奥武甫》的诗体采用头韵而不用尾韵。

8 garbled   

adj.（指信息）混乱的，引起误解的v.对（事实）歪曲，对（文章等）断章取义，窜改( garble的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• He gave a garbled account of what had happened. 他对所发生事情的叙述含混不清。
• The Coastguard needs to decipher garbled messages in a few minutes. 海岸警卫队需要在几分钟内解读这些含混不清的信息。 来自辞典例句

9 concussion   

n.脑震荡；震动

参考例句：

• He was carried off the field with slight concussion.他因轻微脑震荡给抬离了现场。
• She suffers from brain concussion.她得了脑震荡。

10 mangling   

重整

参考例句：

• If not, then give up. This is a profound problem in and multicultural mangling. 这也是生活在多文化社会所要面临的重大问题。 来自互联网

11 garbling   

v.对（事实）歪曲，对（文章等）断章取义，窜改( garble的现在分词 )

参考例句：

12 genealogy   

n.家系，宗谱

参考例句：

• He had sat and repeated his family's genealogy to her,twenty minutes of nonstop names.他坐下又给她细数了一遍他家族的家谱，20分钟内说出了一连串的名字。
• He was proficient in all questions of genealogy.他非常精通所有家谱的问题。

13 discourse   

n.论文，演说；谈话；话语；vi.讲述，著述

参考例句：

• We'll discourse on the subject tonight.我们今晚要谈论这个问题。
• He fell into discourse with the customers who were drinking at the counter.他和站在柜台旁的酒客谈了起来。

14 metaphor   

n.隐喻，暗喻

参考例句：

• Using metaphor,we say that computers have senses and a memory.打个比方，我们可以说计算机有感觉和记忆力。
• In poetry the rose is often a metaphor for love.玫瑰在诗中通常作为爱的象征。

15 overload   

vt.使超载；n.超载

参考例句：

• Don't overload the boat or it will sink.别超载，否则船会沉。
• Large meals overload the digestive system.吃得太饱会加重消化系统的负担。

16 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

17 racist   

n.种族主义者，种族主义分子

参考例句：

• a series of racist attacks 一连串的种族袭击行为
• His speech presented racist ideas under the guise of nationalism. 他的讲话以民族主义为幌子宣扬种族主义思想。

18 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

19 outrages   

引起…的义愤，激怒( outrage的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• People are seeking retribution for the latest terrorist outrages. 人们在设法对恐怖分子最近的暴行进行严惩。
• He [She] is not allowed to commit any outrages. 不能任其胡作非为。

20 overloaded   

a.超载的，超负荷的

参考例句：

• He's overloaded with responsibilities. 他担负的责任过多。
• She has overloaded her schedule with work, study, and family responsibilities. 她的日程表上排满了工作、学习、家务等，使自己负担过重。

21 pundit   

n.博学之人；权威

参考例句：

• Even the outstanding excellent graduate will learn constantly if he likes to be a pundit.即使最优秀的结业生，要想成为一个博学的人也要不断地研究。
• He is a well known political pundit.他是一个著名的政治专家。

22 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

23 crumbled   

（把…）弄碎， （使）碎成细屑( crumble的过去式和过去分词 )； 衰落； 坍塌； 损坏

参考例句：

• He crumbled the bread in his fingers. 他用手指把面包捻碎。
• Our hopes crumbled when the business went bankrupt. 商行破产了，我们的希望也破灭了。

24 dole   

n.救济，（失业）救济金；vt.（out）发放，发给

参考例句：

• It's not easy living on the dole.靠领取失业救济金生活并不容易。
• Many families are living on the dole since the strike.罢工以来，许多家庭靠失业救济金度日。

25 advent   

n.(重要事件等的)到来，来临

参考例句：

• Swallows come by groups at the advent of spring. 春天来临时燕子成群飞来。
• The advent of the Euro will redefine Europe.欧元的出现将重新定义欧洲。

26 technocrats   

n.技术专家，专家政治论者( technocrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Few business barons remained. They were replaced by "technocrats," who became the heads of corporations. 企业巨头所剩无几，大多已被“技术专家”所代替，这些人成了公司的领导。 来自英汉非文学 - 政府文件
• However, bankers called the technocrats' bluff and proceeded to lend with gusto. 但是，银行家们称技术专家官员不过在虚张声势，并且还会乐观的继续借贷业务。 来自互联网

27 ideology   

n.意识形态，(政治或社会的)思想意识

参考例句：

• The ideology has great influence in the world.这种思想体系在世界上有很大的影响。
• The ideal is to strike a medium between ideology and inspiration.我的理想是在意识思想和灵感鼓动之间找到一个折衷。

28 vaguely   

adv.含糊地，暖昧地

参考例句：

• He had talked vaguely of going to work abroad.他含糊其词地说了到国外工作的事。
• He looked vaguely before him with unseeing eyes.他迷迷糊糊的望着前面，对一切都视而不见。

29 irony   

n.反语，冷嘲；具有讽刺意味的事，嘲弄

参考例句：

• She said to him with slight irony.她略带嘲讽地对他说。
• In her voice we could sense a certain tinge of irony.从她的声音里我们可以感到某种讥讽的意味。

30 rehearsal   

n.排练，排演；练习

参考例句：

• I want to play you a recording of the rehearsal.我想给你放一下彩排的录像。
• You can sharpen your skills with rehearsal.排练可以让技巧更加纯熟。

31 sufficiently   

adv.足够地，充分地

参考例句：

• It turned out he had not insured the house sufficiently.原来他没有给房屋投足保险。
• The new policy was sufficiently elastic to accommodate both views.新政策充分灵活地适用两种观点。

32 attuned   

v.使协调( attune的过去式和过去分词 )；调音

参考例句：

• She wasn't yet attuned to her baby's needs. 她还没有熟悉她宝宝的需要。
• Women attuned to sensitive men found Vincent Lord attractive. 偏爱敏感男子的女人，觉得文森特·洛德具有魅力。 来自辞典例句

33 humane   

adj.人道的，富有同情心的

参考例句：

• Is it humane to kill animals for food?宰杀牲畜来吃合乎人道吗？
• Their aim is for a more just and humane society.他们的目标是建立一个更加公正、博爱的社会。

34 dominant   

adj.支配的，统治的；占优势的；显性的；n.主因，要素，主要的人(或物)；显性基因

参考例句：

• The British were formerly dominant in India.英国人从前统治印度。
• She was a dominant figure in the French film industry.她在法国电影界是个举足轻重的人物。

35 discourses   

论文( discourse的名词复数 )； 演说； 讲道； 话语

参考例句：

• It is said that his discourses were very soul-moving. 据说他的讲道词是很能动人心灵的。
• I am not able to repeat the excellent discourses of this extraordinary man. 这位异人的高超言论我是无法重述的。