美国国家公共电台 NPR John Bolton: Trump Administration Could Be Making 'Big Mistake' On North Korea

 

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Ambassador John Bolton is re-entering the public debate with a talk here on NPR. Since the president fired his national security adviser¹ in September, Bolton has largely avoided the media. He also did not talk with House impeachment² investigators³. They heard much testimony⁴ about Bolton but nothing from him. He says courts should decide if an adviser like him should testify. Bolton also has not discussed the policy differences that led President Trump⁵ to fire the veteran diplomat⁶ in a tweet. But in recent weeks, Bolton regained⁷ control of the Twitter account he used while in the White House, and he posted what sounded like a criticism of President Trump's approach to North Korea. The U.S. blocked its allies' efforts to examine North Korea's human rights abuses at the United Nations, and Bolton tweeted that the U.S. should be mobilizing its friends against North Korea and should not obstruct⁸ them. So we called Ambassador Bolton to ask what was on his mind. He came to the phone for an exclusive interview.

I actually want to begin with your tweet on December 10. Were you referring to canceling a U.N. human rights session on North Korea?

JOHN BOLTON: Yes, there was a lot of talk about whether the United States should go forward with that, should accept it - it was suggested by a number of our European allies. I thought it was an excellent point to talk about. I think whenever the Europeans get interested in the North Korean situation, that's to our advantage - I think it's useful to remind them that many of the same complaints could be made about Iran. And I think it's also fine to talk about the North Korean nuclear and ballistic missile programs. But the idea, at least as reported in the press, that the United States opposed a session on North Korean human rights for fear of offending Kim Jong Un would have been a big mistake.

INSKEEP: Well, that seems to be what has happened. How much did the United States damage itself?

BOLTON: Well, I don't think you damage yourself by telling the truth about a country, and I think it's emblematic⁹ of regimes like North Korea and Iran that not only are they rogue¹⁰ states seeking deliverable nuclear weapons, but they're also state sponsors of terrorism and, on the side, repress their own population. I mean, I think there are characteristics about these regimes that tell us a lot about the way they behave.

INSKEEP: Ambassador, is it possible to get a North Korea nuclear deal that is worth having at all?

BOLTON: I don't believe so because I don't think North Korea will ever voluntarily give up nuclear weapons. It's been the pattern as we've watched it for over three decades now. The North Koreans are very happy to declare that they're going to give up their nuclear weapons program, particularly when it's in exchange for tangible¹¹ economic benefits, but they never get around to doing it. And I think the inescapable conclusion is they're happy to sell that same bridge over and over again, but there's no serious chance they will ever voluntarily give it up.

INSKEEP: Is it a mistake for the United States to keep trying, given that countries like China and Russia, North Korea's friends, demand some kind of diplomatic process to keep up economic sanctions?

BOLTON: Well, you know, if they don't want to keep the economic sanctions up, which are, after all, part of U.N. Security Council resolutions, they being permanent members of the Security Council, then I think that tells them something about them as well. The condition should be that North Korea doesn't develop weapons of mass destruction, and I include in there chemical and biological as well as nuclear weapons. The Chinese, for example, say they are opposed to a North Korean nuclear weapon because it will destabilize East Asia and impair¹² their economic development. Well, taking the Chinese at their word, they should want to enforce the sanctions for their own safety.

INSKEEP: You would hope so. But, of course, they're urging that the sanctions be eased at this time. Is it a mistake for the United States to keep trying for some kind of deal?

BOLTON: Well, I take everything that North Korea says with a big grain of salt. There may or may not be some development toward the end of the year. I think part of this may be bluff¹³ on their part. They think the president's desperate for a deal, and if they put an artificial time constraint¹⁴ on it, they may think they're going to get a better deal. We'll just have to wait and see. But this is all part of the North Korean playbook. They've successfully jived the three prior American administrations, and they plan to do the same with this one.

INSKEEP: Is this administration at risk of being - did you say - jived?

BOLTON: Well, I think you have to approach North Korea with the view that they're not going to voluntarily give up their nuclear weapons program. There's simply no evidence, and there never has been for decades, that they're making a strategic decision not to proceed. And the nature of the way North Korea wants to negotiate, what they call action for action, invariably benefits the would-be nuclear weapons state because they get economic benefits that are much more important to them than the minimal¹⁵ concessions¹⁶ they make on the nuclear side.

And here's the key point - time is almost always on the side of the proliferator¹⁷. The more time they have, the more they can overcome all the technological¹⁸ and scientific difficulties to perfecting a deliverable nuclear weapons capability¹⁹. So the fact that they're not doing anything today and they didn't do anything yesterday that we can see is not a good sign. It probably just means we're not seeing it. But the longer time goes on, the greater their capability will become.

INSKEEP: Did differences over North Korea influence your departure from the White House, Ambassador?

BOLTON: Well, you know, I'm going to have my say on all that in due course, and I'll be happy to talk to you about it when the time is appropriate.

INSKEEP: Oh, and people will know you have a book coming out among various other forums²⁰. I guess I can ask, though, if impeachment, which the president now faces, weakens the president's hand when it comes to confronting a country like North Korea?

BOLTON: Well, you know, there's obviously a lot swirling²¹ around in that department, including some litigation that could affect my status. So I think, although I have a lot to say on the subject, the prudent²² course for me is just to decline to comment at this point.

INSKEEP: Oh, you don't want to talk about anything relating to impeachment. Are you able to give your view of this, though - why do you think the House, which asked for your testimony, did not then formally subpoena²³ you?

BOLTON: Honestly, you'll have to ask them.

INSKEEP: Why not testify? People ask. I want you to have an opportunity to answer that.

BOLTON: Well, I appreciate that. But as I say, Dr. Kupperman, my former deputy, is in litigation now on what, to me, is a critical separation of powers question. When the House issues a subpoena, and in his case, and I think it would be true in mine, the president tells him not to testify, which authority controls? Dr. Kupperman went to court to seek the third branch's opinion in this conflict between the first two. I think that's a very important issue that needs to be resolved. When he went to court, the House withdrew their subpoena of him.

INSKEEP: This is Charles Kupperman, another official who has been summoned. And when you say they withdrew the subpoena, are you saying you think that maybe a court would find on the side of you not having to testify or not being allowed to testify?

BOLTON: Well, you know, Dr. Kupperman took the position in his case that he wasn't going to weigh in on the merits of either side. If the court determined²⁴ he should testify, he was prepared to do it. But ironically, both the executive branch and the legislative²⁵ branch didn't want the court to reach the merits. That case is still under advisement. So we're still hoping for a decision that will tell Dr. Kupperman which way he needs to go.

INSKEEP: Ambassador Bolton, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

BOLTON: Well, thanks for having me.

INSKEEP: That's our conversation yesterday afternoon with fired national security adviser John Bolton, who has been largely silent and largely out of the media since he was dismissed from office in September.

1 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

2 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

3 investigators   

n.调查者，审查者( investigator的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• This memo could be the smoking gun that investigators have been looking for. 这份备忘录可能是调查人员一直在寻找的证据。
• The team consisted of six investigators and two secretaries. 这个团队由六个调查人员和两个秘书组成。 来自《简明英汉词典》

4 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

5 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

6 diplomat   

n.外交官，外交家；能交际的人，圆滑的人

参考例句：

• The diplomat threw in a joke, and the tension was instantly relieved.那位外交官插进一个笑话，紧张的气氛顿时缓和下来。
• He served as a diplomat in Russia before the war.战前他在俄罗斯当外交官。

7 regained   

复得( regain的过去式和过去分词 )； 赢回； 重回； 复至某地

参考例句：

• The majority of the people in the world have regained their liberty. 世界上大多数人已重获自由。
• She hesitated briefly but quickly regained her poise. 她犹豫片刻，但很快恢复了镇静。

8 obstruct   

v.阻隔，阻塞(道路、通道等)；n.阻碍物，障碍物

参考例句：

• He became still more dissatisfied with it and secretly did everything in his power to obstruct it.他对此更不满意，尽在暗里使绊子。
• The fallen trees obstruct the road.倒下的树将路堵住了。

9 emblematic   

adj.象征的，可当标志的；象征性

参考例句：

• The violence is emblematic of what is happening in our inner cities. 这种暴力行为正标示了我们市中心贫民区的状况。
• Whiteness is emblematic of purity. 白色是纯洁的象征。 来自辞典例句

10 rogue   

n.流氓；v.游手好闲

参考例句：

• The little rogue had his grandpa's glasses on.这淘气鬼带上了他祖父的眼镜。
• They defined him as a rogue.他们确定他为骗子。

11 tangible   

adj.有形的，可触摸的，确凿的，实际的

参考例句：

• The policy has not yet brought any tangible benefits.这项政策还没有带来任何实质性的好处。
• There is no tangible proof.没有确凿的证据。

12 impair   

v.损害，损伤；削弱，减少

参考例句：

• Loud noise can impair your hearing.巨大的噪音有损听觉。
• It can not impair the intellectual vigor of the young.这不能磨灭青年人思想活力。

13 bluff   

v.虚张声势，用假象骗人；n.虚张声势，欺骗

参考例句：

• His threats are merely bluff.他的威胁仅仅是虚张声势。
• John is a deep card.No one can bluff him easily.约翰是个机灵鬼。谁也不容易欺骗他。

14 constraint   

n.(on)约束，限制；限制(或约束)性的事物

参考例句：

• The boy felt constraint in her presence.那男孩在她面前感到局促不安。
• The lack of capital is major constraint on activities in the informal sector.资本短缺也是影响非正规部门生产经营的一个重要制约因素。

15 minimal   

adj.尽可能少的，最小的

参考例句：

• They referred to this kind of art as minimal art.他们把这种艺术叫微型艺术。
• I stayed with friends, so my expenses were minimal.我住在朋友家，所以我的花费很小。

16 concessions   

n.（尤指由政府或雇主给予的）特许权( concession的名词复数 )；承认；减价；（在某地的）特许经营权

参考例句：

• The firm will be forced to make concessions if it wants to avoid a strike. 要想避免罢工，公司将不得不作出一些让步。
• The concessions did little to placate the students. 让步根本未能平息学生的愤怒。

17 proliferator   

[医]增殖子

参考例句：

• Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR) are a family of at least 3 nuclear receptors (a, 8, andy). 其中PPARγ在心脏中表达丰富，胰岛素增敏剂噻唑烷二酮类药物是PPARγ的合成配体。
• Rosiglitazone belongs to a class of drugs known as peroxisome proliferator-actiated receptor (PPAR) agonists. 罗格列酮属于称为过氧化物酶体活化受体(PPAR)促效剂一类药物。

18 technological   

adj.技术的；工艺的

参考例句：

• A successful company must keep up with the pace of technological change.一家成功的公司必须得跟上技术变革的步伐。
• Today,the pace of life is increasing with technological advancements.当今， 随着科技进步，生活节奏不断增快。

19 capability   

n.能力；才能；(pl)可发展的能力或特性等

参考例句：

• She has the capability to become a very fine actress.她有潜力成为杰出演员。
• Organizing a whole department is beyond his capability.组织整个部门是他能力以外的事。

20 forums   

讨论会； 座谈会； 广播专题讲话节目； 集会的公共场所( forum的名词复数 )； 论坛，讨论会，专题讨论节目； 法庭

参考例句：

• A few of the forums were being closely monitored by the administrators. 有些论坛被管理员严密监控。
• It can cast a dark cloud over these forums. 它将是的论坛上空布满乌云。

21 swirling   

v.旋转，打旋( swirl的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Snowflakes were swirling in the air. 天空飘洒着雪花。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》
• She smiled, swirling the wine in her glass. 她微笑着，旋动着杯子里的葡萄酒。 来自辞典例句

22 prudent   

adj.谨慎的，有远见的，精打细算的

参考例句：

• A prudent traveller never disparages his own country.聪明的旅行者从不贬低自己的国家。
• You must school yourself to be modest and prudent.你要学会谦虚谨慎。

23 subpoena   

n.（法律）传票；v.传讯

参考例句：

• He was brought up to court with a subpoena.他接到传讯，来到法庭上。
• Select committees have the power to subpoena witnesses.特别委员会有权传唤证人。

24 determined   

adj.坚定的；有决心的

参考例句：

• I have determined on going to Tibet after graduation.我已决定毕业后去西藏。
• He determined to view the rooms behind the office.他决定查看一下办公室后面的房间。

25 legislative   

n.立法机构，立法权；adj.立法的，有立法权的

参考例句：

• Congress is the legislative branch of the U.S. government.国会是美国政府的立法部门。
• Today's hearing was just the first step in the legislative process.今天的听证会只是展开立法程序的第一步。