美国国家公共电台 NPR Of Power, Predators And Innocent Mistakes: The Complex Problems Of Sexual Harassment

 

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, HOST:

And this is The Call-In.

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GARCIA-NAVARRO: We're looking at sexual harassment¹ and posing the question, what behavior crosses the line? This past week, more men in positions of power lost their jobs due to allegations of inappropriate behavior, including here at NPR. Mike Oreskes, who headed our newsroom, was asked to resign after a Washington Post expose. We wanted to hear from men this week about how they view this discussion. Wade² Hankin is a 25-year-old from Seattle, Wash. He says he was raised by a feminist³ mom, surrounded by strong women he loved and respected and has thought deeply about issues of consent. And so he was shocked when a friend told him about a line he may have crossed. So when the #MeToo hashtag picked up steam, he posted on Facebook the words, I have.

WADE HANKIN: I was at a party about four years ago - Halloween party. I was blacked-out drunk - alcohol. And I was slapping and grabbing my two friends' behinds, and neither of them liked it. I was recently told this a couple of weeks ago by my friend who I was living with at the time. And I felt it was necessary to say something about it and say how sorry I am.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You didn't remember?

HANKIN: No, I don't. I still to this - right now don't remember doing it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: One of the things we're trying to explore is, what are the lines? What are the lines when we're talking about sexual harassment? On the one hand, obviously, you have the egregious⁴, terrible alleged⁵ behavior of Harvey Weinstein. What line do you think needs to be drawn⁶? What is appropriate or inappropriate behavior?

HANKIN: I think any line where the other person is uncomfortable or feeling like they're being harassed⁷ or assaulted - that's the line for me.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You use social media, as you mentioned, to talk about this using the #IHave. The fact that you came out publicly to talk about this is really quite unusual. You're using your name in this interview. Can you talk about why you felt that was important?

HANKIN: I feel like putting a name to something really adds a lot of weight to the words, to the actions. And there are two sides to this whole scenario⁸ of sexual harassment and sexual assault. And we only ever hear women's allegations, women saying what has happened to them. And if there is any word from a man, it's deny. It's suing. It's - I never did this. It's - I'm not an abuser, this is not who I am. It's never - this is what I have done. I am so sorry. Like, it's never taking responsibility for actions.

And until it happens, there will be no change and there's no way we're ever going to get through this. The world will be a better place if people take responsibility for what they've done, say they're sorry, try to make amends⁹ and, like, become better people out of it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Wade Hankin, thank you very much for sharing your story.

HANKIN: You're very welcome.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: One of the hardest things about this discussion is how difficult it is to agree on any definition of what is inappropriate. We spoke¹⁰ with two women who have written and thought a lot about these gray areas. Kaitlin Prest is the host of The Heart, a podcast on Radiotopia that explores sex, love and relationships. Cathy Young is a contributing editor for Reason magazine and a columnist¹¹ for Newsday. And she wrote an op-ed in The L.A. Times where she said she was concerned that in the current climate, people might lose their jobs of a what she calls, quote, "minor¹² misconduct and ambiguous transgressions¹³."

CATHY YOUNG: You know, obviously, I think we can all get behind people like Harvey Weinstein or, you know, Mark Halperin being exposed for apparent very, very serious misconduct toward subordinates and coworkers. But I think some of the other incidents that we've seen - and, you know, one incident that I mentioned for instance was Roy Price, the person at Amazon who had to step down over what was essentially¹⁴ one sort of instance of a drunken overture¹⁵ to somebody while they were at Comic-Con, which is this very unregulated, very kind of let-your-hair-down environment where everyone was intoxicated¹⁶. And, you know, it may not be admirable conduct. But at the same time, I really don't think that that sort of thing, where there was no hint of retaliation¹⁷, no hint of, you know, him exploiting his status to coerce¹⁸ sexual contact should be treated the same as these people who are engaging in clearly criminal conduct.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Kaitlin, I want to bring you into the conversation. Does it - this is clearly a moment when women are having to address a very real problem.

Should we be concerned about taking it too far?

KAITLIN PREST: Yeah, no. I don't think that we should - I don't think that we need to be concerned about taking it too far. Even something as minor - seemingly minor as going into a meeting and having somebody who is in a position of power over you glance down at your breasts every few moments or asking if you want to go out to your boss's beach house and have a glass of wine. Or, you know...

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And the beach house and the glass of wine was obviously alleged to have happened between Michael Oreskes, the former vice¹⁹ president for news of NPR and a young woman. So, yes, please continue.

PREST: Yeah, you know, like, so these types of things - there's an entire spectrum²⁰ of inappropriate behavior that happens. And especially when you take that into the workplace, those seemingly innocuous behaviors are - those are micro aggressions. Those are the small things that chip away at someone's feeling of professional value in the workplace. Those are the small things that contribute to a woman feeling like the only reason why she's here is because boss man likes to look at her breasts. That doesn't feel good as a professional in a workplace.

And I think that also, you know, something as simple as - I heard a story about somebody who - you know, it was like an innocent hug, a celebratory hug. And there is such a thing as a hug that was totally appropriate. But I think that we're so far away from understanding what consent means that, you know, I think that, actually, it's much better safe than sorry, especially when it comes to the workplace where there's an inherent power dynamic as soon as you walk through the door. And consent and the ability to give consent is very connected to power and who has more power and who has less and who will silence them self to secure the positive feeling from somebody.

You know, like, you want your boss to like you. So you're - you feel like you have to say yes to everything. They ask you to go out for drinks after work, you say yes automatically because you want this person to - you want to have this person's favor.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: So Cathy, jump in. I mean, what...

YOUNG: Right,

GARCIA-NAVARRO: ...What do you see? I mean, clearly, we're talking about work, and we have power differentials there.

YOUNG: So yeah. Well, obviously, there are very real power differentials in the workplace. And yeah, I think absolutely it is appropriate to say to people who are in a position of power, you know, think about the way that your actions affect your subordinates. I think that's absolutely appropriate. That said, I mean, I'm really, really concerned about this mindset that, you know, we have to constantly police for, you know, micro aggressions, which - you know, a lot of that is defined very subjectively²¹. A lot of that is sort of in the eye of the beholder²². When we mention something like, you know, looking down at a woman's breasts, I mean, this can be something where, you know - this is something that can be very easily misinterpreted - I mean, the direction of a person's eyes. And I...

PREST: Really?

YOUNG: ...Really think there is a danger in encouraging people to be sort of so hypersensitive to their comfort level that, you know, there may be a tendency to see sort of offensives where none exist. And, you know, in terms of the ability to understand consent - I mean, I may come - and I suspect that I come at this from a very different perspective generally than Caitlin does.

I mean, I don't think most people really have that much trouble understanding consent. And I think, you know, genuine miscommunications and genuine mixed signals really do happen.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Kaitlin, you produced a whole miniseries for your podcast called No, where you talk about how to negotiate consent.

PREST: Yeah.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Cathy's saying consent...

PREST: That people get it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: ...Is it hard to understand?

PREST: Yeah. I don't - I just wholeheartedly disagree. And I will agree with you, Cathy, and say that I do think the question of what accountability looks like is a huge question that we need to be asking right now and a really, really important question that I don't think we have the answer to at all. But I don't - I'm so happy to be in this moment right now. And I think that it's so important that people are investigating their behavior for the first time. Like, this is the first time where you're hearing people who have perpetrated that type of harassment actually investigating their behavior.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with people feeling some shame, looking within and, like, you know, making a list of all of the times that they have maybe crossed someone's line. I don't think that we're overreacting. I think that this is so important. And I think that in a way, yes I - there is something a little bit scary about how quickly people are being snuffed out at work. And there is some questions to be asked about having them be blacklisted professionally for the rest of their lives. Is it really - is that really warranted? But I also think that the pendulum²³ needs to swing a little bit farther into this extreme before we can get back to the middle.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That was Kaitlin Prest, host of The Heart podcast and Cathy Young, contributing editor for Reason magazine.

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GARCIA-NAVARRO: Next week on The Call-In, Republicans are hashing out details of their tax plan this week. The White House claimed that families making $100,000 a year would end up with $1,000 in tax savings²⁴. A thousand is a number that means very different things depending on where you live. We want to know, what would you do with that money? How easy is it for your family to live on $100,000 where you live? Call in at 202-216-9217. Be sure to include your full name, your contact info, where you're from, your income and we may use it on the air. That number again - 202-216-9217.

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1 harassment   

n.骚扰，扰乱，烦恼，烦乱

参考例句：

• She often got telephone harassment at night these days.这些天她经常在夜晚受到电话骚扰。
• The company prohibits any form of harassment.公司禁止任何形式的骚扰行为。

2 wade   

v.跋涉，涉水；n.跋涉

参考例句：

• We had to wade through the river to the opposite bank.我们只好涉水过河到对岸。
• We cannot but wade across the river.我们只好趟水过去。

3 feminist   

adj.主张男女平等的，女权主义的

参考例句：

• She followed the feminist movement.她支持女权运动。
• From then on,feminist studies on literature boomed.从那时起，男女平等受教育的现象开始迅速兴起。

4 egregious   

adj.非常的，过分的

参考例句：

• When it comes to blatant lies,there are none more egregious than budget figures.谈到公众谎言，没有比预算数字更令人震惊的。
• What an egregious example was here!现摆着一个多么触目惊心的例子啊。

5 alleged   

a.被指控的，嫌疑的

参考例句：

• It was alleged that he had taken bribes while in office. 他被指称在任时收受贿赂。
• alleged irregularities in the election campaign 被指称竞选运动中的不正当行为

6 drawn   

v.拖，拉，拔出；adj.憔悴的，紧张的

参考例句：

• All the characters in the story are drawn from life.故事中的所有人物都取材于生活。
• Her gaze was drawn irresistibly to the scene outside.她的目光禁不住被外面的风景所吸引。

7 harassed   

adj. 疲倦的，厌烦的 动词harass的过去式和过去分词

参考例句：

• He has complained of being harassed by the police. 他投诉受到警方侵扰。
• harassed mothers with their children 带着孩子的疲惫不堪的母亲们

8 scenario   

n.剧本，脚本；概要

参考例句：

• But the birth scenario is not completely accurate.然而分娩脚本并非完全准确的。
• This is a totally different scenario.这是完全不同的剧本。

9 amends   

n. 赔偿

参考例句：

• He made amends for his rudeness by giving her some flowers. 他送给她一些花，为他自己的鲁莽赔罪。
• This country refuses stubbornly to make amends for its past war crimes. 该国顽固地拒绝为其过去的战争罪行赔罪。

10 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

11 columnist   

n.专栏作家

参考例句：

• The host was interviewing a local columnist.节目主持人正在同一位当地的专栏作家交谈。
• She's a columnist for USA Today.她是《今日美国报》的专栏作家。

12 minor   

adj.较小(少)的，较次要的；n.辅修学科；vi.辅修

参考例句：

• The young actor was given a minor part in the new play.年轻的男演员在这出新戏里被分派担任一个小角色。
• I gave him a minor share of my wealth.我把小部分财产给了他。

13 transgressions   

n.违反，违法，罪过( transgression的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Many marine transgressions occur across coastal plains. 许多海运是横越滨海平原。 来自辞典例句
• For I know my transgressions, and my sin always before me. 因为我知道我的过犯，我的罪常在我面前。 来自互联网

14 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

15 overture   

n.前奏曲、序曲，提议，提案，初步交涉

参考例句：

• The opera was preceded by a short overture.这部歌剧开始前有一段简短的序曲。
• His overture led to nothing.他的提议没有得到什么结果。

16 intoxicated   

喝醉的，极其兴奋的

参考例句：

• She was intoxicated with success. 她为成功所陶醉。
• They became deeply intoxicated and totally disoriented. 他们酩酊大醉，东南西北全然不辨。

17 retaliation   

n.报复，反击

参考例句：

• retaliation against UN workers 对联合国工作人员的报复
• He never said a single word in retaliation. 他从未说过一句反击的话。 来自《简明英汉词典》

18 coerce   

v.强迫，压制

参考例句：

• You can't coerce her into obedience.你不能强制她服从。
• Do you think there is any way that we can coerce them otherwise?你认为我们有什么办法强迫他们不那样吗？

19 vice   

n.坏事；恶习；[pl.]台钳，老虎钳；adj.副的

参考例句：

• He guarded himself against vice.他避免染上坏习惯。
• They are sunk in the depth of vice.他们堕入了罪恶的深渊。

20 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。

21 subjectively   

主观地； 臆

参考例句：

• Subjectively, the demand of interest is the desire of human being. 荀子所说的对利的需要从主观上说就是人的欲望。
• A sound also has an amplitude, a property subjectively heard as loudness. 声音有振幅，振幅的主观感觉是声音的大小。

22 beholder   

n.观看者，旁观者

参考例句：

• Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 看起来觉得美就是美。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• It has been said that art is a tryst, for in the joy of it maker and beholder meet. 有人说艺术是一种幽会，因为艺术家和欣赏者可在幽会的乐趣中相遇在一起。 来自《简明英汉词典》

23 pendulum   

n.摆，钟摆

参考例句：

• The pendulum swung slowly to and fro.钟摆在慢慢地来回摆动。
• He accidentally found that the desk clock did not swing its pendulum.他无意中发现座钟不摇摆了。

24 savings   

n.存款，储蓄

参考例句：

• I can't afford the vacation,for it would eat up my savings.我度不起假，那样会把我的积蓄用光的。
• By this time he had used up all his savings.到这时，他的存款已全部用完。