PBS高端访谈:俄罗斯对未来的美国会有什么威胁?

 　　STEVE INSKEEP: Now, President-elect Trump¹ has said he would like to improve relations with Russia. His choice for defense² secretary views Russia as America's number one threat.

　　Let's listen to Gen. James Mattis at his hearing today.

　　GEN. JAMES MATTIS (RET.), Secretary of Defense-Designate: I would consider the principal threats to start with Russia. And it would certainly include any nations that are looking to intimidate³ nations around their periphery⁴, regional nations nearby them, whether it be with weapons of mass destruction or I would call it unusual, unorthodox means of intimidating⁵ them.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Well, let's talk about this with Michael McFaul, who served as ambassador to Russia for the United States from 2012 to 2014. He is now a political science professor at Stanford University and senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.

　　We're also joined by Evelyn Farkas, who served as deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia from 2012 to 2015. She's now a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, which is a Washington security think tank.

　　And welcome to you both.

　　And, Evelyn, let's start with you.

　　Is Mattis right, Russia is the number one threat? It's not China, it's not North Carolina, it's not ISIS?

　　EVELYN FARKAS, Former Defense Department Official: Nope, it's not the others.

　　Actually, what is interesting is, he mentioned Russia by name. He didn't mention the others by name. The second category he gave, of course, could have included Russia.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Countries threatening their neighbors.

　　EVELYN FARKAS: Country threatening using unorthodox means, like cyber-attacks, cyber-operations, strategic communications, fake news, et cetera.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: I want the bring Ambassador McFaul into the conversation, but first let's hear a contrary view here, what sounds like a contrary view.

　　We know that the president-elect seems to want Russia as a friend. President Obama arguably has not wanted to say that Russia is that great of a threat. He doesn't seem all that worried about them. And let's listen a little bit of the president in December.

　　PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: The Russians can't change us or significantly weaken us. They are a smaller country. They are a weaker country. Their economy doesn't produce anything that anybody wants to buy, except oil and gas and arms. They don't innovate⁷. But they can impact us if we lose track of who we are.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Ambassador McFaul, that's your former boss. Is Russia really that dangerous?

　　MICHAEL MCFAUL, Former U.S. Ambassador to Russia: Well, I think Russia is dangerous, not a superpower. I know what the president is trying to say. I worked for him for five years, not just two.

　　He doesn't want us to overreact. He doesn't want to go back to the Cold War and some superpower competition. But my own view, and I think General Mattis stated something similar today, is that Russia is a challenge for the United States. It is a threat to some of our allies.

　　And what means they have, they're prepared to use them. That's the big difference. Take cyber-capabilities⁸. We have way more cyber-capability than they do. We could intervene in their elections easily. We choose not to do so because we're a different country. That's what Obama was trying to say.

　　The means that Mr. Putin has, he's not afraid to use them.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: I'm remembering the word asymmetric⁹, which we all had to learn after 9/11, when we heard about asymmetric threats, that al-Qaida wasn't that large, not conventionally powerful, didn't control territory, but they found new ways to project power that were extraordinarily¹⁰ dangerous.

　　Is this an asymmetric situation with Russia, where they are a relatively¹¹ weak country in many ways, but they have found new ways to strike out at their neighbors and at the United States?

　　MICHAEL MCFAUL: I believe so, I think in a couple of instances.

　　Number one, I just mentioned cyber. They have kinds of capabilities. They use those capabilities in different ways, political ways, than we're prepared to do so. With respect to their military, of course they don't have the military means at all compared to the United States of America.

　　But they were prepared to use their military to annex¹² territory on their neighbor and then intervene in Eastern Ukraine. We're not prepared to do that. And then, number three, I think something that's really understudied and misunderstood is their use of information.

　　They are very bold in the world of information, propagating their ideas, using companies like R.T. and Sputnik to do that. And, again, they don't play by the same rules. What we call news, fact vs. fiction, they're a lot more loose in terms of those definitions. And that has a greater effect, therefore, because they play by different rules.

　　俄罗斯对未来的美国会有什么威胁?

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Evelyn Farkas, the Republican critique here is that Russia is in a weak situation, but has been emboldened¹³ by a weak response from the United States, that in Ukraine, that in other places, the United States has not stepped forward.

　　Is there some justice in that view?

　　EVELYN FARKAS: I regretfully say there is some justice in the view, because the only thing that the Kremlin, this cadre of people supporting Vladimir Putin, and Vladimir Putin himself understand is strength, is resolve.

　　And they will not stop until they are given the sense that the costs will be too high and they will have gone too far. The other part of this is that Putin himself is a bit of a risk taker, so the invading Ukraine, in the east in particular — Crimea was risky¹⁴, but then the east was risky. And actually then he didn't pull it off completely.

　　And then Syria was very risky. Both these operations, as Mike pointed¹⁵ out, were using their military, but they actually didn't use their whole military either. They were pretty much economies of force.

　　But I think, yes, of course we need to be stronger. We need to deter¹⁶ the Russians. We need to show resolve, which is why cooperating with them on the other hand can be more difficult.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Well, let's talk explicitly¹⁷ about Russian President Vladimir Putin and President-elect Trump.

　　President-elect Trump talked about Putin at his news conference yesterday. Let's listen to a little bit of that.

　　DONALD TRUMP (R), President-Elect: If Putin likes Donald Trump, I consider that an asset, not a liability, because we have a horrible relationship with Russia. Russia can help us fight ISIS, which, by the way, is, number one, tricky¹⁸.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: And I want to add one other thing, Ambassador McFaul, because Donald Trump sent out a tweet the other day. I'm sure you noticed it.

　　He said: "Having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only stupid people or fools would think it was bad."

　　MICHAEL MCFAUL: Felt that was directed at me.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: You think it was directed at you?

　　What's wrong with having a good relationship with Russia?

　　MICHAEL MCFAUL: Well, first, two things. I want to be clear that when you mention the Republican critique of President Obama, that is not President-elect Trump's critique, right? So you have a real clash within the Republican Party, and I think within the Trump administration, about how to develop policy toward Russia.

　　But here's what I would say to that tweet: It should never be the goal of U.S. foreign policy towards any country to have a — quote, unquote — "good relation." Then what? What do we get out of that? We get — Trump is helping¹⁹ the approval ratings amongst Russians. How does that advance American national security interests?

　　I think you have got to flip²⁰ it around. He has got to define what he seeks to achieve with Russia, and then use diplomacy²¹ and sometimes coercion²² to achieve those ends. Right now, aside from this fight with ISIS, which I would just underscore, you know, the Obama administration has been trying to fight ISIS with Russia for several years now.

　　There's no disagreement there. They just have not been useful, because the Russians don't want to fight ISIS in Syria. They want to leave that to us. Aside from that, I don't know what are the objectives that Mr. Trump seeks in having a good relationship with Mr. Putin.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Well, that leads to one more point, Evelyn Farkas, because in the Senate hearing today, Senator John McCain said Russia is not going to be our friend. In fact, he said Russia wants and needs to be our enemy.

　　EVELYN FARKAS: Right.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: And they're not going to cooperate even on ISIS.

　　So, what can the United States achieve, then?

　　EVELYN FARKAS: I mean, we can try to get them to cooperate on ISIS, but, as Mike pointed out, we spent months in the administration trying to get them to cooperate on terrorism, actually starting with the Sochi Olympics, where it was on their territory. You would have thought they would have wanted to cooperate.

　　And I think you pointed to a very important point we need to bear in mind, which is the Russian domestic situation. In 2018, Vladimir Putin will be up for reelection, and he has shifted his whole political strategy inside of Russia from one where he promised the Russians pretty much a chicken in every pot, a better economic way of life.

　　He's now nationalist. And what he does is, he tells the Russian people, OK, you may have a little less chicken in your pot, but I'm making Russia great again. Look what we're doing all other the world. Everyone is paying attention to us. And Russia is a great power, on par⁶ with the United States and others.

　　And he — and the anti-Americanism is rampant²³ in Russia right now. He can tone it back. He's going to have to tone it back if he wants a good relationship with Donald Trump, but he's going to have to probably shift back to that again, because the Russian people are not going to be interested in having a guy give them a raw economic deal for another term.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Ambassador McFaul, is there just one thing you can name that the United States could deal with Russia on?

　　MICHAEL MCFAUL: Well, of course we can deal with them on counterterrorism. We have and I think we are right now. That's easy.

　　I think in other economic and trade issues, under the right conditions. And, again, I guess I want to really emphasize this point. Vladimir Putin knows exactly what he wants from this relationship. In return for good relations, he wants lifting of sanctions, ratification²⁴, approval of his wars in Ukraine and Syria, and his dream of dreams, an acknowledgment of his sphere of influence in Ukraine and the former Soviet²⁵ Union.

　　That, to me, is a bad deal. Once he understands that we're not going to take that deal, then we can move on to these other things, but, first and foremost, he wants to test that proposition. And he's waiting to see what President Trump will do when given that deal on offer.

　　STEVE INSKEEP: Michael McFaul is a former U.S. ambassador to Russia. Evelyn Farkas is a former Pentagon official here in our studios.

　　Thanks to you both.

　　EVELYN FARKAS: Thank you very much.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

3 intimidate   

vt.恐吓，威胁

参考例句：

• You think you can intimidate people into doing what you want?你以为你可以威胁别人做任何事？
• The first strike capacity is intended mainly to intimidate adversary.第一次攻击的武力主要是用来吓阻敌方的。

4 periphery   

n.(圆体的)外面；周围

参考例句：

• Geographically, the UK is on the periphery of Europe.从地理位置上讲，英国处于欧洲边缘。
• The periphery of the retina is very sensitive to motion.视网膜的外围对运动非常敏感。

5 intimidating   

vt.恐吓，威胁( intimidate的现在分词)

参考例句：

• They were accused of intimidating people into voting for them. 他们被控胁迫选民投他们的票。
• This kind of questioning can be very intimidating to children. 这种问话的方式可能让孩子们非常害怕。

6 par   

n.标准，票面价值，平均数量；adj.票面的，平常的，标准的

参考例句：

• Sales of nylon have been below par in recent years.近年来尼龙织品的销售额一直不及以往。
• I don't think his ability is on a par with yours.我认为他的能力不能与你的能力相媲美。

7 innovate   

v.革新，变革，创始

参考例句：

• We must innovate in order to make progress.我们必须改革以便取得进步。
• It is necessary to innovate and develop military theories.创新和发展军事理论是必要的。

8 capabilities   

n.能力( capability的名词复数 )；可能；容量；[复数]潜在能力

参考例句：

• He was somewhat pompous and had a high opinion of his own capabilities. 他有点自大，自视甚高。 来自辞典例句
• Some programmers use tabs to break complex product capabilities into smaller chunks. 一些程序员认为，标签可以将复杂的功能分为每个窗格一组简单的功能。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓

9 asymmetric   

a.不对称的

参考例句：

• Most people's faces are asymmetric. 大多数人的脸不对称。
• We have made no reference to asymmetric carbon atoms. 我们未曾涉及不对称碳原子。

10 extraordinarily   

adv.格外地；极端地

参考例句：

• She is an extraordinarily beautiful girl.她是个美丽非凡的姑娘。
• The sea was extraordinarily calm that morning.那天清晨，大海出奇地宁静。

11 relatively   

adv.比较...地，相对地

参考例句：

• The rabbit is a relatively recent introduction in Australia.兔子是相对较新引入澳大利亚的物种。
• The operation was relatively painless.手术相对来说不痛。

12 annex   

vt.兼并，吞并；n.附属建筑物

参考例句：

• It plans to annex an England company in order to enlarge the market.它计划兼并一家英国公司以扩大市场。
• The annex has been built on to the main building.主楼配建有附属的建筑物。

13 emboldened   

v.鼓励，使有胆量( embolden的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• Emboldened by the wine, he went over to introduce himself to her. 他借酒壮胆，走上前去向她作自我介绍。
• His success emboldened him to expand his business. 他有了成就因而激发他进一步扩展业务。 来自《简明英汉词典》

14 risky   

adj.有风险的，冒险的

参考例句：

• It may be risky but we will chance it anyhow.这可能有危险，但我们无论如何要冒一冒险。
• He is well aware how risky this investment is.他心里对这项投资的风险十分清楚。

15 pointed   

adj.尖的，直截了当的

参考例句：

• He gave me a very sharp pointed pencil.他给我一支削得非常尖的铅笔。
• She wished to show Mrs.John Dashwood by this pointed invitation to her brother.她想通过对达茨伍德夫人提出直截了当的邀请向她的哥哥表示出来。

16 deter   

vt.阻止，使不敢，吓住

参考例句：

• Failure did not deter us from trying it again.失败并没有能阻挡我们再次进行试验。
• Dogs can deter unwelcome intruders.狗能够阻拦不受欢迎的闯入者。

17 explicitly   

ad.明确地，显然地

参考例句：

• The plan does not explicitly endorse the private ownership of land. 该计划没有明确地支持土地私有制。
• SARA amended section 113 to provide explicitly for a right to contribution. 《最高基金修正与再授权法案》修正了第123条，清楚地规定了分配权。 来自英汉非文学 - 环境法 - 环境法

18 tricky   

adj.狡猾的，奸诈的；(工作等)棘手的，微妙的

参考例句：

• I'm in a rather tricky position.Can you help me out?我的处境很棘手，你能帮我吗？
• He avoided this tricky question and talked in generalities.他回避了这个非常微妙的问题，只做了个笼统的表述。

19 helping   

n.食物的一份&adj.帮助人的，辅助的

参考例句：

• The poor children regularly pony up for a second helping of my hamburger. 那些可怜的孩子们总是要求我把我的汉堡包再给他们一份。
• By doing this, they may at times be helping to restore competition. 这样一来, 他在某些时候,有助于竞争的加强。

20 flip   

vt.快速翻动；轻抛；轻拍；n.轻抛；adj.轻浮的

参考例句：

• I had a quick flip through the book and it looked very interesting.我很快翻阅了一下那本书，看来似乎很有趣。
• Let's flip a coin to see who pays the bill.咱们来抛硬币决定谁付钱。

21 diplomacy   

n.外交；外交手腕，交际手腕

参考例句：

• The talks have now gone into a stage of quiet diplomacy.会谈现在已经进入了“温和外交”阶段。
• This was done through the skill in diplomacy. 这是通过外交手腕才做到的。

22 coercion   

n.强制，高压统治

参考例句：

• Neither trickery nor coercion is used to secure confessions.既不诱供也不逼供。
• He paid the money under coercion.他被迫付钱。

23 rampant   

adj.(植物)蔓生的；狂暴的，无约束的

参考例句：

• Sickness was rampant in the area.该地区疾病蔓延。
• You cannot allow children to rampant through the museum.你不能任由小孩子在博物馆里乱跑。

24 ratification   

n.批准，认可

参考例句：

• The treaty is awaiting ratification.条约正等待批准。
• The treaty is subject to ratification.此条约经批准后才能生效。

25 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。