pbs高端访谈:简化税务代码改革是否可行?

 　　JEFFREY BROWN:Yes, taxes are due on Monday. And, yes, once again, tax reform is in the air. It's been more than a quarter-century since the last overhaul¹, and now President Obama and key leaders in both parties say they'd like to work on simplifying the tax code.

　　But if the past is a guide, that it's much easier said than done. This week, the president brought back some of his longstanding proposals as part of his budget. They include capping itemized deductions³ and exemptions⁶, such as the mortgage interest and charitable deductions, for wealthier households earning $250,000 dollars or more, tax increases on the foreign earnings⁷ of American companies, and a rise in taxes to at least 30 percent for individuals earning a million dollars or more.

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　　We take a look at all of this now with David Cay Johnston, a columnist⁸ for Tax Analysts⁹ magazine and professor of law at Syracuse University College of Law, and Douglas Holtz-Eakin, an economist¹⁰ and president of the American Action Forum¹¹.

　　David Cay Johnston, let me start with you, and start with personal taxes that so many people face a deadline on. Help us think about possible reforms. What is the biggest problem with the system right now?

　　DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, "The Fine Print": Well, for most people, it is that they shouldn't have to file.

　　The government has all the information it needs for people who only get income from wages or pensions. And so if we excluded a small amount of money from dividends¹² and interest, which we did do in the 1970s, we could eliminate tax filing for about 100 million of the 140 million people. So that is at the bottom end.

　　At the top end, we allow people to make unlimited¹³ amounts of money and not pay taxes on them if they run hedge funds or executives. They can defer¹⁴ the taxes into the future, sometimes decades into the future. And they can borrow in many cases against this money to live on and not pay taxes for a long time.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Douglas Holtz-Eakin, first, respond to that. Does that sound look a good wish list?

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN, Former Congressional Budget Office Director: Well, that's a good starting point.

　　I think the number one thing I would put on that list is the perceived fairness of the tax code.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Perceived fairness?

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:The U.S. has relied on voluntary compliance¹⁵. And it actually has by world standards a good tax code that people comply with.

　　If you lose faith in the fairness of the tax code, people don't comply, you start to have big problems. So ...

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And why have people lost faith?

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:They don't understand how the tax code works.

　　So, I think to begin the discussion on tax reform, you shouldn't talk about what we are going to go get, that sort of money-grubbing approach to tax reform that says, is, I'm going to go get that deduction², I'm going to go get that exemption⁵, I'm going to go find their money, and instead say, we know the tax code is supposed to raise revenue, but what else do we want it to do?

　　Do we want it to support growth? Do we want it to hit some fairness objectives? Are we interested in social objectives, like owning a home, going to college? Should it be really simple? Should it be easy to comply with? Figure out what the tax code should mean so it means something and people can see it doing its job.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:So, why—David Cay Johnston, why doesn't that happen?

　　DAVID CAY JOHNSTON:Well, because we have all these interests that are out there promoting this or that.

　　We have driven up the cost of housing, for example, through the mortgage interest deduction, which is an upside-down deduction. The more money you make, the bigger the subsidy¹⁶ you get. And you have a whole industry that wants to support that. And I think Doug is exactly right.

　　We have to talk about what is it we want out of the tax code, what social benefits if any do we want, and how do we raise sufficient revenue? We're raising—per capita adjusted for inflation, we are taking in about 35 percent less in the income tax system than we were in 2000.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Well, the Republicans talk about lowering rates, but broadening the base or widening the base.

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:Sure.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:How do you do that fitting into what we are talking about, simplifying and making people trust the system?

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:That's the conventional definition of tax reform, lower rates, broaden the base, have that base be the things we agree should be taxed, and have the things left out of the base be the things, charities or whatever it may be, that we agree should be exempt⁴ from tax.

　　So that's the recipe. We have seen bipartisan efforts that do that, Bowles-Simpson commission, for example, lower rates, broader-based rate, a lot more money, more than just the current amount. I think the real outlier has been in this administration's desire to have a broader base and higher rates. And that's no one's conventional definition of tax reform. And the question is whether you can get everybody to sign on to that.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:You want to respond to that, David?

　　DAVID CAY JOHNSTON:Well, I think we can justify¹⁷ higher rates way up.

　　You know, we talk about this as a quarter-million dollar threshold. We have people in this country who make a million, three million dollars a day and, they're taxed at the same rate as people who are in the quarter-million, half-million dollar rate—income level.

　　And I think we need to recognize that the system doesn't capture people at the very, very top. And the Bush administration in 2005 acknowledged that—they said, we have made the system more progressive up to the 99.9 percent level.

　　Well, the top 10 percent make almost as much as the bottom half of Americans. We should focus a lot on them. But we also want to broaden base. I agree entirely¹⁸ with that. And I think we should try to get rates as low as we can to bring in the necessary revenues.

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:So, I think David Cay—this is exactly the discussion that I would love to hear on Capitol Hill, because what he is saying is, yes, we need to raise the revenue. Taxes have to pay the bills of the government. That is the main job.

　　And they should be fair. We're going to try to get and make sure the upper end pays taxes because the money there. That's a set of priorities. That tells you what a tax code looks like in Mr. Johnston's mind. At this point in time, I think a fair argument can be made that the second priority, the one past raising the revenues, should be let's grow more rapidly.

　　We have very high unemployment. It's been around a long time. We're growing at rates people that don't like. So you're going hear voices that say, OK, I understand that. But in the list of things, when you can't do everything, let's have a tax code that supports economic growth. That affects individuals, but it also affects all those small businesses that are taxed as individuals, and it affects the corporate¹⁹ code.

　　So the tax reform debate gets shaped by what your objectives are in a deep way.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And speaking of the corporate code, David Cay Johnston, because I know this has been a big issue for you, briefly²⁰, tell us what the problem is.

　　DAVID CAY JOHNSTON:Well, just 2,600 of the six million corporations in America own 80 percent of the assets.

　　And under a 1986 law, they can build up unlimited amounts of cash offshore²¹. And they're allowed to siphon profits earned in the United States out of the country as expenses. They pay themselves to their foreign subsidiaries for the use of patents and intellectual properties that they own.

　　This is damaging our economy. It's encouraging companies to invest elsewhere. And our rate is too high, given that the rest of the world has lowered their rates. So—but the worst thing we could have, I think, Jeff, would be to lower the rate and not fix these fundamental problems that allow companies to game the system.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:All right, and you're agreeing at with least part of that.

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:Oh, yes, certainly. I think we have a corporate tax code that hits the worst of all worlds. It's not helping²² us compete. It's not helping us grow and it raises no revenue. That's a terrible code. So ...

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And the reason for this is again going back to what you were saying before about the interest and...

　　DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN:Well, it's in part these international transactions.

　　So if you think about where you could get bipartisan consensus²³, I think you could get it on, let's get the rate down to 25 percent. Ours is too high. Let's do it, say, in a revenue-neutral fashion. Let's not have individuals have to pay for corporate reform. Let's make the corporations do their own reform.

　　And then you get to the tough part. How do you want to handle the international transactions? I think the solution to that is, let's have a tax code that matches the rest of the developed world and tax companies largely on what they do in the U.S., leaving their Brazilian operations to be taxed by Brazil, and then pair that, before Mr. Johnston jumps in, with a set of geeky rules known as base erosion rules that will be so tough that he will never get to write another book on international tax evasion²⁴.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:All right, I'm not going to let him...

　　We're going to end the discussion, but we're going to watch carefully to see if this continues on Capitol Hill, as you have suggested.

　　Douglas Holtz-Eakin, David Cay Johnston, thanks very much.

　　DAVID CAY JOHNSTON:Thank you.

1 overhaul   

v./n.大修，仔细检查

参考例句：

• Master Worker Wang is responsible for the overhaul of this grinder.王师傅主修这台磨床。
• It is generally appreciated that the rail network needs a complete overhaul.众所周知，铁路系统需要大检修。

2 deduction   

n.减除，扣除，减除额；推论，推理，演绎

参考例句：

• No deduction in pay is made for absence due to illness.因病请假不扣工资。
• His deduction led him to the correct conclusion.他的推断使他得出正确的结论。

3 deductions   

扣除( deduction的名词复数 )； 结论； 扣除的量； 推演

参考例句：

• Many of the older officers trusted agents sightings more than cryptanalysts'deductions. 许多年纪比较大的军官往往相信特务的发现，而不怎么相信密码分析员的推断。
• You know how you rush at things,jump to conclusions without proper deductions. 你知道你处理问题是多么仓促，毫无合适的演绎就仓促下结论。

4 exempt   

adj.免除的；v.使免除；n.免税者，被免除义务者

参考例句：

• These goods are exempt from customs duties.这些货物免征关税。
• He is exempt from punishment about this thing.关于此事对他已免于处分。

5 exemption   

n.豁免，免税额，免除

参考例句：

• You may be able to apply for exemption from local taxes.你可能符合资格申请免除地方税。
• These goods are subject to exemption from tax.这些货物可以免税。

6 exemptions   

n.（义务等的）免除( exemption的名词复数 )；免（税）；（收入中的）免税额

参考例句：

• The exemptions for interpretive rules, policy statements, and procedural rules have just been discussed. 有关解释性规则、政策说明和程序规则的免责我们刚刚讨论过。 来自英汉非文学 - 行政法
• A: The regulation outlines specific exemptions for some WPM. 答：该规定概述了某些木质包装材料的特定的例外情形。 来自互联网

7 earnings   

n.工资收人；利润，利益，所得

参考例句：

• That old man lives on the earnings of his daughter.那个老人靠他女儿的收入维持生活。
• Last year there was a 20% decrease in his earnings.去年他的收入减少了20%。

8 columnist   

n.专栏作家

参考例句：

• The host was interviewing a local columnist.节目主持人正在同一位当地的专栏作家交谈。
• She's a columnist for USA Today.她是《今日美国报》的专栏作家。

9 analysts   

分析家，化验员( analyst的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• City analysts forecast huge profits this year. 伦敦金融分析家预测今年的利润非常丰厚。
• I was impressed by the high calibre of the researchers and analysts. 研究人员和分析人员的高素质给我留下了深刻印象。

10 economist   

n.经济学家，经济专家，节俭的人

参考例句：

• He cast a professional economist's eyes on the problem.他以经济学行家的眼光审视这个问题。
• He's an economist who thinks he knows all the answers.他是个经济学家，自以为什么都懂。

11 forum   

n.论坛，讨论会

参考例句：

• They're holding a forum on new ways of teaching history.他们正在举行历史教学讨论会。
• The organisation would provide a forum where problems could be discussed.这个组织将提供一个可以讨论问题的平台。

12 dividends   

红利( dividend的名词复数 )； 股息； 被除数； （足球彩票的）彩金

参考例句：

• Nothing pays richer dividends than magnanimity. 没有什么比宽宏大量更能得到厚报。
• Their decision five years ago to computerise the company is now paying dividends. 五年前他们作出的使公司电脑化的决定现在正产生出效益。

13 unlimited   

adj.无限的，不受控制的，无条件的

参考例句：

• They flew over the unlimited reaches of the Arctic.他们飞过了茫茫无边的北极上空。
• There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris.在技术方面自以为是会很危险。

14 defer   

vt.推迟，拖延；vi.(to)遵从，听从，服从

参考例句：

• We wish to defer our decision until next week.我们希望推迟到下星期再作出决定。
• We will defer to whatever the committee decides.我们遵从委员会作出的任何决定。

15 compliance   

n.顺从；服从；附和；屈从

参考例句：

• I was surprised by his compliance with these terms.我对他竟然依从了这些条件而感到吃惊。
• She gave up the idea in compliance with his desire.她顺从他的愿望而放弃自己的主意。

16 subsidy   

n.补助金，津贴

参考例句：

• The university will receive a subsidy for research in artificial intelligence.那个大学将得到一笔人工智能研究的补助费。
• The living subsidy for senior expert's family is included in the remuneration.报酬已包含高级专家家人的生活补贴。

17 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

18 entirely   

ad.全部地，完整地；完全地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The fire was entirely caused by their neglect of duty. 那场火灾完全是由于他们失职而引起的。
• His life was entirely given up to the educational work. 他的一生统统献给了教育工作。

19 corporate   

adj.共同的，全体的；公司的，企业的

参考例句：

• This is our corporate responsibility.这是我们共同的责任。
• His corporate's life will be as short as a rabbit's tail.他的公司的寿命是兔子尾巴长不了。

20 briefly   

adv.简单地，简短地

参考例句：

• I want to touch briefly on another aspect of the problem.我想简单地谈一下这个问题的另一方面。
• He was kidnapped and briefly detained by a terrorist group.他被一个恐怖组织绑架并短暂拘禁。

21 offshore   

adj.海面的，吹向海面的；adv.向海面

参考例句：

• A big program of oil exploration has begun offshore.一个大规模的石油勘探计划正在近海展开。
• A gentle current carried them slowly offshore.和缓的潮流慢慢地把他们带离了海岸。

22 helping   

n.食物的一份&adj.帮助人的，辅助的

参考例句：

• The poor children regularly pony up for a second helping of my hamburger. 那些可怜的孩子们总是要求我把我的汉堡包再给他们一份。
• By doing this, they may at times be helping to restore competition. 这样一来, 他在某些时候,有助于竞争的加强。

23 consensus   

n.(意见等的)一致，一致同意，共识

参考例句：

• Can we reach a consensus on this issue?我们能在这个问题上取得一致意见吗？
• What is the consensus of opinion at the afternoon meeting?下午会议上一致的意见是什么？

24 evasion   

n.逃避，偷漏(税)

参考例句：

• The movie star is in prison for tax evasion.那位影星因为逃税而坐牢。
• The act was passed as a safeguard against tax evasion.这项法案旨在防止逃税行为。