PBS高端访谈:对特朗普的弹劾将公开化

Megan Thompson: For more on the impeachment¹ inquiry², NewsHour Weekend Special Correspondent Jeff Greenfield joins me now from Santa Barbara. So, Jeff, we've had this vote to formalize that procedure. So what are we going to see now?

Jeff Greenfield: Sometime in the next couple of weeks we're going to see public televised hearings. We're going to actually get to see the depositions⁴ that some of the witnesses gave in closed testimony⁵. And then the question is, who are we going to see in public? Will we be hearing from Lieutenant⁶ Colonel Vindman, the national security adviser⁷ on Ukraine, who was quite alarmed by what he heard on the call? Are we going to have John Bolton, the former national security adviser, who was also quite alarmed by what he heard? He said he will only testify if compelled to by a court.

And then the question will be, who will Republicans try to bring on to attempt to undercut the central story of the president asking for a quid pro³ quo in return for military aid? So. But it is going to be public.

Megan Thompson: I mean, what impact could that have? Does this represent a risk in some sense or an opportunity for Democrats⁸?

Jeff Greenfield: We get a clue from the fact that under the rules, each side is going to have 45 minutes of block time to present their case and talk to their witnesses. And the questioning is going to be done by staff attorneys, not by Congressmen. And that means the Democrats have realized that this back and forth⁹, five minutes each, muddles¹⁰ the story. They want a clear, coherent story to present, if impeachment ever comes, as it probably will to a full vote. The risk would be if the Republicans can get people to testify who basically say this whole narrative¹¹ is exaggerated or false.

Megan Thompson: Just this morning, we saw a new Fox News poll come out that said 49 percent of voters support impeachment. Do we have reason to think that some of this partisanship¹² in Congress might start to erode¹³?

Jeff Greenfield: I really think that even with the slight erosion in support for Trump¹⁴ among Republicans, it's down, but it's 78 percent, when you look at the risk that Republican Senators up for reelection may be taking, they might want to appeal to more moderate voters who were less happy about Trump. But do they risk alienating¹⁵ that firm base? So that part of the partisanship, I just think is not going to fade barring some miracle. One other point. If this gets to a trial in the Senate in January, you have six Democratic senators running for president who are going to be, in effect, chained to their desks just as the climax¹⁶ to the Iowa caucuses¹⁷ and the New Hampshire primary approach. And I doubt that Republican Leader McConnell is going to want to do them any favors. So that's another way that partisanship may play a role in what we see.

Megan Thompson: None of this is happening in a vacuum, of course. I wanted to ask you, historically, when we look at other impeachment inquiries¹⁸ in the last century, how have things like the economy and approval ratings played a role?

Jeff Greenfield: One of the things that doomed¹⁹ Nixon was in in 1974, as the impeachment waters were rising, the economy was headed into recession and the stock market was in freefall. By contrast, the economy under Bill Clinton in the late 90s was as good as it has been in the entire 20th century. And so his approval ratings, even during impeachment, never dropped below 60 percent. In Trump's case, his approval ratings generally are lower than they should be given the state of the economy. So you could say that if something were to turn in the next couple of months, if the economy were really to sour, that could be a real problem for Trump maintaining the base that he does have.

Megan Thompson: All right, Jeff Greenfield, thank you so much, as always, for being here.

Jeff Greenfield: Nice to be here.

梅根·汤普森：本期将来了解一下关于弹劾调查的事情。今天邀请《新闻一小时》周末档特约记者杰夫·格林菲尔德从圣巴巴拉市与我们连线。现在已经通过投票将弹劾流程正式化了。那么接下来会有什么好戏上演呢？

杰夫·格林菲尔德：未来几周里，我们或许会看到电视直播听证会。我们会看到证人在闭门证词中提供口供。那么问题就来了：我们会看到谁呢？温德曼中校是否会出庭作证呢？温德曼中校是关于乌克兰事宜的国家安全顾问，关于温德曼听到的电话内容，他自己已经如惊弓之鸟了。博尔顿是否会出庭作证呢？博尔顿是前国家安全顾问，他跟温德曼的情况一样。博尔顿说自己只有在法庭强制的情况下才会出庭作证。那么又有一个问题出现了：共和党会派谁来转移人们对特朗普电话门事件的注意力，从而换取军事援助作为条件呢？这件事是要公之于众的。

梅根·汤普森：我想说的是这件事的影响。这件事对于民主党来说是威胁还是机会呢？

杰夫·格林菲尔德：在当前的规则下，各方全程都有45分钟的时间提起诉讼并跟当时人交流。我们从这个当前规则中获得了一条线索。审讯将由法务专员来完成，而不是由议员来完成。也就是说，民主党已经意识到到时候会是双方各有5分钟的时间来和稀泥，如此循环往复。如果弹劾真地有来的那一天，那他们希望呈现出清晰连贯的故事。而有可能弹劾的事情会全票通过。风险在于：共和党是否能找到人来作证说整件事是否被夸大了。

梅根·汤普森：就在今天早上，我们看到一条福克斯新闻新的民意测验。民意测验指出，49%的选民支持弹劾特朗普。我们是否有理由认为，国会的部分党派可能开始腐化了呢？

杰夫·格林菲尔德：我真的觉得，虽然特朗普在共和党内的支持率有小幅下滑，但依然高达78%。大家可以去了解一下共和党的参议员是冒着多大的风险来从事再次选举的工作的。他们可能想吸引更多温和的选民、对特朗普不那么讨厌的选民。但他们确实有冒着失去坚实选民基础的风险吗？所以，这部分党派问题可能会阻碍奇迹的诞生。还有一点：如果这件事要在一月份由参议院审议的话，就会有6名民主党参议员竞选总统。而他们要面对的是爱荷华州初选的高潮和新罕布什尔州初选的问题。而且我怀疑共和党领袖麦康奈尔应该会希望他们能助力。这是我认为党派会发挥作用的另一种方式。

梅根·汤普森：当然，这些都会需要有一定的媒介才会发生。我还想问您一个问题：从历史的角度看，过去一个世纪以来，每当我们考量弹劾调查的时候，经济、支持率等因素会发挥怎样的作用呢？

杰夫·格林菲尔德：第一次导致尼克松跌入万劫不复深渊的调查是在1974年，那时候，针对他的调查势头正猛，经济也开始衰退，股市也开始大跌。与之形成对比的是：上世纪90年代末，在比尔·克林顿的领导下，经济达到了跟整个20世纪比肩的高度。所以，他的支持率即便在弹劾期间也从未低于60%。考虑到该州的经济情况，特朗普的支持率比应该达到的水平低了一些。所以，应该说，如果未来数月内，事情要发生转变的话，如果经济要腾飞的话，那这会对特朗普保住选民基础成为真正的问题。

梅根·汤普森：好的，杰夫·格林菲尔德，非常感谢您参加本期节目。

杰夫·格林菲尔德：我的荣幸。

1 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

2 inquiry   

n.打听，询问，调查，查问

参考例句：

• Many parents have been pressing for an inquiry into the problem.许多家长迫切要求调查这个问题。
• The field of inquiry has narrowed down to five persons.调查的范围已经缩小到只剩5个人了。

3 pro   

n.赞成，赞成的意见，赞成者

参考例句：

• The two debating teams argued the question pro and con.辩论的两组从赞成与反对两方面辩这一问题。
• Are you pro or con nuclear disarmament?你是赞成还是反对核裁军？

4 depositions   

沉积（物）( deposition的名词复数 )； （在法庭上的）宣誓作证； 处置； 罢免

参考例句：

• The safety problems are more severe for low-pressure depositions because the processes often use concentrated gases. 对于低压淀积来说安全性问题更为突出，因为这种工艺通常使用高浓度的气体。
• The chief method is to take depositions of parties and witnesses. 主要的方法是录取当事人和证人的宣誓证言。 来自口语例句

5 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

6 lieutenant   

n.陆军中尉，海军上尉；代理官员，副职官员

参考例句：

• He was promoted to be a lieutenant in the army.他被提升为陆军中尉。
• He prevailed on the lieutenant to send in a short note.他说动那个副官，递上了一张简短的便条进去。

7 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

8 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

9 forth   

adv.向前；向外，往外

参考例句：

• The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
• He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。

10 muddles   

v.弄乱，弄糟( muddle的第三人称单数 )；使糊涂；对付，混日子

参考例句：

• Translation muddles model concepts, which leads to destructive refactoring of code. 这些转换混淆了模型的概念，可能导致重构代码时的失败。 来自互联网
• A glass of whisky soon muddles him. 一杯威士忌很快就会把他醉得迷迷糊糊。 来自互联网

11 narrative   

n.叙述，故事；adj.叙事的，故事体的

参考例句：

• He was a writer of great narrative power.他是一位颇有记述能力的作家。
• Neither author was very strong on narrative.两个作者都不是很善于讲故事。

12 Partisanship   

n. 党派性, 党派偏见

参考例句：

• Her violent partisanship was fighting Soames's battle. 她的激烈偏袒等于替索米斯卖气力。
• There was a link of understanding between them, more important than affection or partisanship. ' 比起人间的感情，比起相同的政见，这一点都来得格外重要。 来自英汉文学

13 erode   

v.侵蚀，腐蚀，使...减少、减弱或消失

参考例句：

• Once exposed,soil is quickly eroded by wind and rain.一旦暴露在外，土壤很快就会被风雨侵蚀。
• Competition in the financial marketplace has eroded profits.金融市场的竞争降低了利润。

14 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

15 alienating   

v.使疏远( alienate的现在分词 )；使不友好；转让；让渡（财产等）

参考例句：

• The phenomena of alienation are widespread. Sports are also alienating. 异化现象普遍存在，体育运动也不例外。 来自互联网
• How can you appeal to them without alienating the mainstream crowd? 你是怎么在不疏忽主流玩家的情况下吸引住他们呢？ 来自互联网

16 climax   

n.顶点；高潮；v.(使)达到顶点

参考例句：

• The fifth scene was the climax of the play.第五场是全剧的高潮。
• His quarrel with his father brought matters to a climax.他与他父亲的争吵使得事态发展到了顶点。

17 caucuses   

n.（政党决定政策或推举竞选人的）核心成员( caucus的名词复数 )；决策干部；决策委员会；秘密会议

参考例句：

• Republican caucuses will happen in about 410 towns across Maine. 共和党团会议选举将在缅因州的约410个城镇进行。 来自互联网

18 inquiries   

n.调查( inquiry的名词复数 )；疑问；探究；打听

参考例句：

• He was released on bail pending further inquiries. 他获得保释，等候进一步调查。
• I have failed to reach them by postal inquiries. 我未能通过邮政查询与他们取得联系。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

19 doomed   

命定的

参考例句：

• The court doomed the accused to a long term of imprisonment. 法庭判处被告长期监禁。
• A country ruled by an iron hand is doomed to suffer. 被铁腕人物统治的国家定会遭受不幸的。