pbs高端访谈:主张反税的罗弗·诺奎斯特把平衡的方法比作粉红独角兽

 　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Negotiators in Washington signaled publicly today that there had been little progress in reaching a deal to avert¹ the fiscal² cliff with 19 days to go until a year-end deadline.

　　REP. JOHN BOEHNER, R-Ohio: I remain the most optimistic person in this town. But we have got some serious differences.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:That downbeat assessment³ from House Speaker John Boehner came after he and President Obama traded fresh offers this week.

　　JOHN BOEHNER:We spoke⁴ honestly and openly about the differences that we face. But the president's called for $1.4 trillion worth of revenue. That cannot pass the House or the Senate.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:The president originally sought $1.6 trillion in revenue over 10 years, before lowering his target to $1.4 trillion. The money would come from raising rates on the top 2 percent of wage earners and curbing⁵ loopholes.

　　Boehner's counter was little changed, $800 billion in revenues from closing loopholes and capping deductions⁶, but no rate hikes.

　　Republicans have also demanded entitlement reform, and in a Tuesday interview, the president wouldn't rule out raising the Medicare eligibility⁷ age by two years, to 67.

　　Today, his White House spokesman, Jay Carney, summed up.

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　　JAY CARNEY, White House: He is willing to make tough choices. And he has made clear and specified⁸ the spending cuts that he is willing to make. And he has said that he is willing to go further as part of a broader deficit⁹ reduction plan. But he will not extend the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Despite the apparent stalemate, House Republicans pledged to keep at it.

　　REP. ERIC CANTORR-Va.: We're going to stay here right up until Christmas Eve, throughout the time and period before the new year, because we want to make sure that we resolve this in an acceptable way for the American people.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:But House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi fired back that Republicans are the ones holding everything up.

　　REP. NANCY PELOSI,D-Calif.: If we were waiting for something, you could say it's well worth the wait. But we're just -- the Republicans are just delaying.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:And Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke warned again that delay is dangerous.

　　BEN BERNANKE, Federal Reserve chairman: Even though we're not yet even reached the point of the fiscal cliff potentially kicking in, it's already affecting business investment and hiring decisions by creating uncertainty¹⁰ or creating pessimism¹¹.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:All of which threatened to cast a pall¹² over the holidays, at the Capitol, and just about everywhere else.

　　And that brings us to our continuing series of conversations on this topic -- tonight, one of the more outspoken¹³ voices against raising taxes.

　　Grover Norquist is a conservative lobbyist and the president of Americans for Tax Reform. Most famously, he's known for getting many elected Republicans to sign a pledge not to raise taxes. But now some lawmakers are suggesting they may be willing to change their position.

　　Grover Norquist, welcome to the program.

　　GROVER NORQUIST, Americans for Tax Reform: Good to be with you.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:And, in fact, there are a growing number of Republicans who are saying either they have renounced¹⁵ that pledge or they may be prepared to renounce¹⁴ it in order to deal with the serious fiscal problem facing the country.

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, interestingly, the problem we have is too much spending. And so the only solution to spending too much is spending less.

　　We don't have a problem with not enough in terms of tax revenue coming in. The problem is government spends too much. So raising taxes is what politicians do, instead of reducing spending. That's the argument Boehner's having with the president of the United States. The president wants higher taxes. Boehner would like less spending.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Well, I'm sure you know a number of economists¹⁶ talk about the importance of a balanced approach. It was what was in the Bowles-Simpson commission report.

　　But let me ask you about not only the exit polls on Election Day, but poll after poll since the election shows distinct majority -- of elections -- say they believe that it's the right thing to raise taxes on income over $250,000 a year if that's what it takes to deal with the deficit. Why are those people wrong?

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, the actual exit poll, the question of should we raise taxes to reduce the deficit on Election Day, was 63 percent no.

　　So people said no to raising taxes to reduce the deficit. Why? Well, if you look at other polls over the course of years, 75 percent of the American people understand that if you start a conversation with we're going to raise taxes on the rich, it ends with raising taxes on everyone, like the AMT, the Alternative Minimum Tax. Supposed to hit 150 people in January. It hits 30 million American families.

　　So -- and then the other part of that is, if you raise taxes to reduce the deficit, will they spend the money or will they reduce the deficit? Over 60 percent of Americans point out they will just spend the money. So the argument for raising taxes, the American people see through that.

　　It's not a tax on the rich. It will hit everyone. The income tax was only supposed to hit people who made $11 million or more when they put it in. Now half of Americans get hit by it.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Well, the polls I'm seeing do show that a majority of Americans say they're prepared to go along with higher taxes for people making over $250,000 a year.

　　But let me ask you, Grover Norquist, about what happened in the past when tax rates went up under President Clinton and under previous eras. Tax rates went up, and there was still strong economic growth.

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, you can go to the Clinton years. The first two years of the Clinton administration had slow growth and not much job creation. And he raised taxes and he planned to spend every dollar that came in, in terms of a tax revenue, plus $200 billion.

　　His five-year plan was $200 billion every year out because he was going to spend every penny that the tax increases brought in, plus $200 billion.

　　However, he lost the House and the Senate because the American people objected to his tax increase. For six years, you had a Republican House and Senate. They didn't let him spend the money he wanted to spend. So the budget went into balance. They cut the capital gains tax, which gave you growth.

　　So, the last six years, there were pro-growth tax cuts, and they didn't spend the money he wanted to. So it is true that, if you elect a Republican House and Senate as a result of tax increases, it helps with growth.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Well, we can debate that at another time.

　　But let me come back to what we talked about at the outset. And that is Republicans -- more and more Republicans now saying they believe, OK, President Obama won reelection. In order to get a balanced plan to reduce the deficit, each side is going to have to give.

　　For example, you have Sen. Tom Coburn, strong conservative from the state of Oklahoma, saying -- quote -- "I don't care which way we do it. I would rather see rates go up than do it the other way, because it gives us greater chance to reform the tax code and broaden the base in the future.”

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, you have always had some Republicans who say maybe we could raise taxes as part of a deal. Coburn did two years ago.

　　But, as I argued to Senator Coburn then, that if you put taxes on the table , you never get spending restraint. And in point of fact, the only time we actually got spending restraint out of one of these deals was two years ago, when we had the Budget Control Act for the debt ceiling. We cut spending $2.5 trillion, not a dollar of tax increase. Coburn was wrong that you had to raise taxes to get the agreement.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:But there are other Republicans that are talking about this now who have not said this in the past.

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, not too many. Actually, there have been a number that come out each time who say, maybe we could do this.

　　But, in point of fact, if you raise taxes, you don't get the spending restraint just historically. It happened in '82, happened in '90.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Well, let me ask you about cutting spending. You keep saying that you don't get the spending restraint. But if there were a guarantee, a commitment from the administration, from Democrats¹⁸ in the Congress they are going to vote and support reductions in spending, would you then favor a balanced plan that would include higher taxes?

　　GROVER NORQUIST:If there were such things as pink unicorns¹⁹, what would I trade for them?

　　The challenge is that the administration has been there for four years and done none of this. Every time they have entered into a negotiation²⁰, they have only wanted to talk about tax increases. Is it possible that the president changes his mind? That would be a good idea. We just haven't seen it before.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:The administration -- the president has already talked about changes in Medicare. Just yesterday, he left open the possibility of raising the retirement²¹ age, which would lower the cost for Medicare -- I'm sorry -- not the retirement age, but the eligibility age for Medicare. That would cut the costs of Medicare, a significant entitlement.

　　GROVER NORQUIST:The spending restraint in his budget, what he put forward and every Democrat¹⁷ voted against in the House and the Senate, was to save a trillion dollars by not occupying Iraq for the next decade. That's not a serious effort. The Iraqis kicked us out of the country.

　　It's not a real budget cut. He also wants to save a trillion dollars by counting tax cuts that have already -- spending cuts that have already been put into law as part of the previous agreement.

　　That's selling the same horse again. So that's $2 trillion of what he called spending cuts. One's phony. The other's already in law. He hasn't yet gotten serious about spending restraint.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:So are you prepared to see -- to have the Congress go over the fiscal cliff, in other words? I mean...

　　GROVER NORQUIST:That's the question people asked when the president threatened to default two years ago. And people said, would the Republicans cause the default? No, only the president can cause the default, because only the president decides whether or not to pay interest bills.

　　The president, I think, has decided²² to go over the fiscal cliff for a number of reasons, because he thinks he can blame other people for it. I hope he doesn't do that. But it's up to him. Two years ago, he extended all the Bush tax cuts without all this drama for two years. He could do it again tomorrow. He may decide to push us over a cliff.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:And, finally, Grover Norquist, will there be a political price to pay for Republicans who vote to raise taxes, if that is what it comes down to?

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Well, I think Republicans will take a look. Most Republicans have committed, not to me, but to their constituents²³, that they won't raise taxes and they will fight against tax increases.

　　They have to -- whatever they vote for, they have to go to their constituents and say, this wasn't a tax increase or let me explain to you what I did. But they have to talk to their constituents. Most Republicans have made it very clear they're not interested in raising taxes. They want to reform government.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Grover Norquist, thank you very much for talking with us.

　　GROVER NORQUIST:Thank you.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF:Online, we profile two lawmakers who oppose Norquist's pledge. Plus, you can watch other interview from our series.

1 avert   

v.防止，避免；转移(目光、注意力等)

参考例句：

• He managed to avert suspicion.他设法避嫌。
• I would do what I could to avert it.我会尽力去避免发生这种情况。

2 fiscal   

adj.财政的，会计的，国库的，国库岁入的

参考例句：

• The increase of taxation is an important fiscal policy.增税是一项重要的财政政策。
• The government has two basic strategies of fiscal policy available.政府有两个可行的财政政策基本战略。

3 assessment   

n.评价；评估；对财产的估价，被估定的金额

参考例句：

• This is a very perceptive assessment of the situation.这是一个对该情况的极富洞察力的评价。
• What is your assessment of the situation?你对时局的看法如何？

4 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

5 curbing   

n.边石，边石的材料v.限制，克制，抑制( curb的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Progress has been made in curbing inflation. 在控制通货膨胀方面已取得了进展。
• A range of policies have been introduced aimed at curbing inflation. 为了抑制通货膨胀实施了一系列的政策。

6 deductions   

扣除( deduction的名词复数 )； 结论； 扣除的量； 推演

参考例句：

• Many of the older officers trusted agents sightings more than cryptanalysts'deductions. 许多年纪比较大的军官往往相信特务的发现，而不怎么相信密码分析员的推断。
• You know how you rush at things,jump to conclusions without proper deductions. 你知道你处理问题是多么仓促，毫无合适的演绎就仓促下结论。

7 eligibility   

n.合格，资格

参考例句：

• What are the eligibility requirements? 病人被选参加试验的要求是什么？ 来自英汉非文学 - 生命科学 - 回顾与展望
• Eligibility for HINARI access is based on gross national income (GNI). 进入HINARI获取计划是依据国民总收入来评定的。

8 specified   

adj.特定的

参考例句：

• The architect specified oak for the wood trim. 那位建筑师指定用橡木做木饰条。
• It is generated by some specified means. 这是由某些未加说明的方法产生的。

9 deficit   

n.亏空，亏损；赤字，逆差

参考例句：

• The directors have reported a deficit of 2.5 million dollars.董事们报告赤字为250万美元。
• We have a great deficit this year.我们今年有很大亏损。

10 uncertainty   

n.易变，靠不住，不确知，不确定的事物

参考例句：

• Her comments will add to the uncertainty of the situation.她的批评将会使局势更加不稳定。
• After six weeks of uncertainty,the strain was beginning to take its toll.6个星期的忐忑不安后，压力开始产生影响了。

11 pessimism   

n.悲观者，悲观主义者，厌世者

参考例句：

• He displayed his usual pessimism.他流露出惯有的悲观。
• There is the note of pessimism in his writings.他的著作带有悲观色彩。

12 pall   

v.覆盖，使平淡无味；n.柩衣，棺罩；棺材；帷幕

参考例句：

• Already the allure of meals in restaurants had begun to pall.饭店里的饭菜已经不像以前那样诱人。
• I find his books begin to pall on me after a while.我发觉他的书读过一阵子就开始对我失去吸引力。

13 outspoken   

adj.直言无讳的，坦率的，坦白无隐的

参考例句：

• He was outspoken in his criticism.他在批评中直言不讳。
• She is an outspoken critic of the school system in this city.她是这座城市里学校制度的坦率的批评者。

14 renounce   

v.放弃；拒绝承认，宣布与…断绝关系

参考例句：

• She decided to renounce the world and enter a convent.她决定弃绝尘世去当修女。
• It was painful for him to renounce his son.宣布与儿子脱离关系对他来说是很痛苦的。

15 renounced   

v.声明放弃( renounce的过去式和过去分词 )；宣布放弃；宣布与…决裂；宣布摒弃

参考例句：

• We have renounced the use of force to settle our disputes. 我们已再次宣布放弃使用武力来解决争端。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Andrew renounced his claim to the property. 安德鲁放弃了财产的所有权。 来自《简明英汉词典》

16 economists   

n.经济学家，经济专家( economist的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The sudden rise in share prices has confounded economists. 股价的突然上涨使经济学家大惑不解。
• Foreign bankers and economists cautiously welcomed the minister's initiative. 外国银行家和经济学家对部长的倡议反应谨慎。 来自《简明英汉词典》

17 democrat   

n.民主主义者，民主人士；民主党党员

参考例句：

• The Democrat and the Public criticized each other.民主党人和共和党人互相攻击。
• About two years later,he was defeated by Democrat Jimmy Carter.大约两年后，他被民主党人杰米卡特击败。

18 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

19 unicorns   

n.（传说中身体似马的）独角兽( unicorn的名词复数 )；一角鲸；独角兽标记

参考例句：

• Unicorns are legendary beasts. 独角兽是传说里的野兽。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Assemble50 Elder Druids, 30 Silver Unicorns and10 Green Dragons do defend it. 募集50个德鲁伊长老，30只银色独角兽和10条绿龙用于防御。 来自互联网

20 negotiation   

n.谈判，协商

参考例句：

• They closed the deal in sugar after a week of negotiation.经过一星期的谈判，他们的食糖生意成交了。
• The negotiation dragged on until July.谈判一直拖到7月份。

21 retirement   

n.退休，退职

参考例句：

• She wanted to enjoy her retirement without being beset by financial worries.她想享受退休生活而不必为金钱担忧。
• I have to put everything away for my retirement.我必须把一切都积蓄起来以便退休后用。

22 decided   

adj.决定了的，坚决的；明显的，明确的

参考例句：

• This gave them a decided advantage over their opponents.这使他们比对手具有明显的优势。
• There is a decided difference between British and Chinese way of greeting.英国人和中国人打招呼的方式有很明显的区别。

23 constituents   

n.选民( constituent的名词复数 )；成分；构成部分；要素

参考例句：

• She has the full support of her constituents. 她得到本区选民的全力支持。
• Hydrogen and oxygen are the constituents of water. 氢和氧是水的主要成分。 来自《简明英汉词典》