PBS高端访谈:特朗普的墙能立起来吗

Judy Woodruff: As we have been hearing, one issue that's sure to be part of immigration talks in coming weeks is the president's proposed border wall with Mexico. The controversial wall, a hallmark of Mr. Trump¹'s campaign, has yet to materialize. There's still no funding from Congress. Eight prototypes are still being evaluated to see how effective they are. From PBS station KPBS in San Diego, Jean Guerrero examines the challenges of physically² keeping illegal immigrants out of the U.S.

President Donald Trump: And we're going to build the wall, the wall. We're going to build the wall.

Jean Guerrero: President Trump promised to build a wall. Here on this dirt patch of land in southeastern San Diego are the main products of those promises, eight prototypes of various colors and materials. Each towers about 30-feet-high, three times the height of the existing border fence just south of them.

Ron Vitiello: Thanks for joining CBP on what we think is an announcement to be proud of.

Jean Guerrero: It's been three months since they were unveiled, with the acting³ deputy commissioner⁴ for U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Ron Vitiello, lauding⁵ their scale.

Ron Vitiello: The biggest impression I have is how big they are.

Jean Guerrero: The prototypes cost taxpayers⁶ $20 million. But it's unclear if the prototypes will ever be used, because there's still no money for Mr. Trump's wall. The prospect⁷ of the wall has inspired several artistic⁸ protests, such as a billboard-size image of a little boy peeking⁹ into the U.S. over the fence. More recently, artists project light graffiti onto the prototype from Mexico. One of them is Jill Holslin.

Jill Holslin: The border wall is absolutely against the core foundational values of the United States. The core foundational values of the United States have been built upon immigration, upon welcoming refugees, upon creating a society that's very diverse.

Jean Guerrero: But some continue to await the wall with hopeful anticipation¹⁰. One of those people is Bob Maupin, a retired¹¹ mechanic whose property touches the border in southeastern San Diego County.

Bob Maupin: And if we get a wall like they built in Israel, I probably won't have to wear a bulletproof vest along the border anymore.

Jean Guerrero: He patrols his property for trespassers from Mexico.

Bob Maupin: Hell yes I'm a vigilante, if you use the word before Hollywood got ahold of it, because, originally, vigilantes were people that were enforcing the law because of the lack of law enforcement.

Jean Guerrero: Along the southern edge of his property, he built a chain-link fence that runs parallel to the government's border fence. He says the government fence is pretty useless because it's so easy to climb, standing¹² only 10 feet tall here, with corrugations that can be used as steps. His fence is crowned with barbed wire. Still, it often gets cut by smugglers. Maupin has patched it with bundles of chain-link and metal slabs¹³.

Bob Maupin: Over the years, my wife and I have spent probably $20,000 in fence repair in property repair because of these people.

Jean Guerrero: Now Maupin feels he must use himself as a barrier against illegal immigration.

Bob Maupin: It is my duty to protect the country from people invading it.

Jean Guerrero: Further east, in the Arizona desert, another man searches for people who get lost illegally crossing the border and tries to save them. Here, it's nature that stops people from coming through. Hundreds die each year from the extreme temperatures. Often, Ely Ortiz recovers their bodies, with the help of a group named Aguilas Del Desierto, Eagles of the Desert. Ortiz says the existing wall is to blame for the deaths, because it has pushed migrants into the desert.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): The wall is a method of discrimination. It's a way of saying, you're inferior to me and here I am marking my territory. The United States, with its policies, how many deaths has it caused?

Jean Guerrero: He says a longer wall will mean more deaths. Ortiz started this rescue group after finding the body of his own brother, Rigoberto, in the Arizona desert. Rigoberto died trying to cross the border illegally in 2009.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): I lost all illusions, all ambition for having things. I stopped having desires to be somebody. I wanted to dedicate my life to helping¹⁴ people who suffer this.

Jean Guerrero: On this search, Ortiz and his group come across a stack of letters and other things that appear to have belonged to someone who died. A large stain of grease on the desert floor indicates that a corpse¹⁵ was recently removed from here.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): "I love you so much, Francisco, my love."

Jean Guerrero: The letters appear to be from the man's girlfriend or wife.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter):There shouldn't be a border wall. We're all human.

Jean Guerrero: Back in San Diego, Border Patrol agent Joshua Wilson says the wall makes it easier for agents to do their jobs.

Joshua Wilson: No barrier is a be-all, end-all that's going to prevent all illegal activity. However, what it does is it allows us time to interdict¹⁶ the attempt to enter the country illegally. And it acts as a speed bump.

Jean Guerrero: He says there are areas of the border that the wall doesn't address at all, such as the ocean.

Joshua Wilson: We have had people try to swim across, surf across, scuba¹⁷ dive, jet ski. There's no end to the creativity of the people trying to come here illegally.

Jean Guerrero: Maritime¹⁸ apprehensions¹⁹ skyrocketed after the first wall was built. Smugglers also started digging tunnels under the fence and using drones. And now government statistics show that most drug trafficking occurs through ports of entry. Experts on both sides of the political spectrum²⁰ agree that even if President Trump's wall is built, smugglers won't stop finding new strategies for getting people into the U.S. For the PBS NewsHour ,I'm Jean Guerrero in San Diego.

朱蒂·伍德瑞夫：我们一直听说，未来几周的移民谈判中肯定会涉及到总统的墨西哥边界隔离墙提案。这座隔离墙饱受争议，是特朗普竞选时的一个标志，目前尚未建成。国会尚未对此提供资金支持。八个设计方案仍在接受评估，看看它们效果如何。珍妮·格雷罗从圣地亚哥PBS站点KPBS为您报道，物理（隔离）手段驱逐非法移民面临诸多问题。

总统唐纳德·特朗普：我们要建那座墙，那座隔离墙。我们要把它建起来！

珍妮·格雷罗：特朗普总统承诺建造一堵（隔离）墙。这里是圣地亚哥东南部一块满是泥泞的土地，也正是这些承诺兑现的众矢之的。隔离墙现有八种不同颜色不同材料的设计方案。每座墙都有大约30英尺高，是现存南侧围栏高度的三倍。

罗恩·维蒂埃洛：感谢大家的到来，CBP认为这是一件令人倍感骄傲的事情。

珍妮·格雷罗：自宣布那天起，这件事已过去了三个月，CBP代理副专员罗恩·维蒂埃洛对他们的壮举大加称赞。

罗恩·维蒂埃洛：给我印象最深的是，它们真是非常高大。

珍妮·格雷罗：这些设计样本花了纳税人2000万美元。但目前还不清楚这些设计样本是否会得到采纳，因为特朗普的这座隔离墙，仍然没人出钱。这座墙的尴尬境地激起了几个艺术抗议活动。比如，有人画了一张广告牌那么大的画，画中一个小男孩正趴在围墙上窥视美国。最近，还有艺术家在墨西哥一面的设计样本上投影涂鸦。其中一个便是吉尔·郝斯林。

吉尔·郝斯林：边界墙完全违背了美国的核心基础价值观。美国的核心价值观是建立在移民上的，这里欢迎难民、欢迎建立多元文化社会。

珍妮·格雷罗：但有些人对这堵墙还是满怀希望。鲍勃·莫平就是其中的一位，鲍勃已经退休，是位机械师，他家房子靠近圣迭戈县东南部边境。

鲍勃·莫平：如果我们有一个像他们在以色列建造的那种围墙，我可能就再也不用穿防弹背心了。

珍妮·格雷罗：他要防着从墨西哥来的越境者，保护他的财产安全。

鲍勃·莫平：是的，我是个义务警员，要是好莱坞没用这词儿的话。因为，义务警员原本的意思是指在执法人手不足时的执法者。

珍妮·格雷罗：在他家南边，他建造了一个平行于政府边界栅栏的锁链栅栏。他说政府的栅栏根本没用，因为它太容易攀爬，只有10英尺高，还有褶皱，脚都可以踩住。他的篱笆上有带刺的铁丝网。然而，走私者们常把它切断。莫平已经把它捆上了链条和金属板。

鲍勃·莫平：多年来，我和妻子因为这些人已经花了20000美元，专门为了修理围墙。

珍妮·格雷罗：现在，莫平觉得他必须亲自打击非法移民。

鲍勃·莫平：保护国家不受侵犯是我的责任。

珍妮·格雷罗：再往东，在亚利桑那州沙漠，有人（竟会）搜寻那些非法越境的人，尝试对他们实施营救。在这里，自然阻挡了人们的去路。每年死于极端气温的人多达几百。通常，在Aguilas Del Desierto沙漠之鹰小组的帮助下，伊利·奥尔蒂斯帮助他们恢复（身体机能）。奥尔蒂斯说，现在已有的（隔离）墙正是造成他们死亡的原因，因为这些墙把移民逼向沙漠。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：隔离墙政策是一种歧视。这是在说，你不如我，这里是我的地盘。美国，因其政策，多少人只剩白骨？

珍妮·格雷罗：他说更长的墙意味着更多的死亡。2009年，里戈韦托非法越境，死在半路。奥尔蒂斯（最终）在亚利桑那州沙漠找到了他的尸体，从此以后，她开始组建搜救小组，展开救援。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：我所有的幻想均已破灭，雄心壮志也都灰飞烟灭。我放弃了渴望成为某人的愿望。我想把一生都献给那些遭受苦难的人们，帮助他们。

珍妮·格雷罗：在搜救中，奥尔蒂斯和他的搜救小组收到了很多来信还有其他东西，这些东西似乎都是死者遗物。沙漠地面上的大片油渍表明，刚有尸体从这里移走。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：“我深深地爱着你，佛朗西斯科，我的爱人。”

珍妮·格雷罗：这封信似乎出自他女友或妻子之手。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：根本不应该有边界存在。我们都是人。

珍妮·格雷罗：回到圣地亚哥，边境巡逻部门的约书亚·威尔逊说，有了这些墙，他们做起工作来更容易了。

约书亚·威尔逊：对于阻止非法活动而已，任何隔离设施都并非十全十美。但在阻止非法入境一事上，它们为我们赢得了时间。作用就像路面减速器。

珍妮·格雷罗：他说有一些边界地区，用墙根本解决不了问题，比如海洋。

约书亚·威尔逊：我们曾让人尝试通过游泳、冲浪、潜水、喷气式滑雪等方式渡海。要想通过非法途径来到这里，人们总有办法，创新永无止境。

珍妮·格雷罗：早先第一座墙立起来以后，来自海上的忧惧陡然上升。走私者也开始在围栏下挖掘隧道，还使用了无人机。如今政府统计数字表明，大多数贩毒行为都发生在入境口岸。政治光谱双方专家一致认为，即使特朗普总统的墙立了起来，走私活动也不会停止，那些人总会找到进入美国的新方法。我是PBS NewsHour珍妮·格雷罗，圣地亚哥为您报道。

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 physically   

adj.物质上，体格上，身体上，按自然规律

参考例句：

• He was out of sorts physically,as well as disordered mentally.他浑身不舒服，心绪也很乱。
• Every time I think about it I feel physically sick.一想起那件事我就感到极恶心。

3 acting   

n.演戏，行为，假装；adj.代理的，临时的，演出用的

参考例句：

• Ignore her,she's just acting.别理她，她只是假装的。
• During the seventies,her acting career was in eclipse.在七十年代，她的表演生涯黯然失色。

4 commissioner   

n.（政府厅、局、处等部门）专员，长官，委员

参考例句：

• The commissioner has issued a warrant for her arrest.专员发出了对她的逮捕令。
• He was tapped for police commissioner.他被任命为警务处长。

5 lauding   

v.称赞，赞美( laud的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Let sing out our own song lauding life, lauding world. 让我们以我们自己的歌来咏赞生命，咏赞世界吧！ 来自互联网
• Vice President-elect Joe Biden also spoke, lauding the value of work and the dignity it brings. 副总统当选人乔·拜登经常说，要赞颂工作的价值及其带来的高贵。 来自互联网

6 taxpayers   

纳税人，纳税的机构( taxpayer的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Finance for education comes from taxpayers. 教育经费来自纳税人。
• She was declaiming against the waste of the taxpayers' money. 她慷慨陈词猛烈抨击对纳税人金钱的浪费。

7 prospect   

n.前景，前途；景色，视野

参考例句：

• This state of things holds out a cheerful prospect.事态呈现出可喜的前景。
• The prospect became more evident.前景变得更加明朗了。

8 artistic   

adj.艺术(家)的，美术(家)的；善于艺术创作的

参考例句：

• The picture on this screen is a good artistic work.这屏风上的画是件很好的艺术品。
• These artistic handicrafts are very popular with foreign friends.外国朋友很喜欢这些美术工艺品。

9 peeking   

v.很快地看( peek的现在分词 )；偷看；窥视；微露出

参考例句：

• I couldn't resist peeking in the drawer. 我不由得偷看了一下抽屉里面。
• They caught him peeking in through the keyhole. 他们发现他从钥匙孔里向里窥视。 来自辞典例句

10 anticipation   

n.预期，预料，期望

参考例句：

• We waited at the station in anticipation of her arrival.我们在车站等着，期待她的到来。
• The animals grew restless as if in anticipation of an earthquake.各种动物都变得焦躁不安，像是感到了地震即将发生。

11 retired   

adj.隐退的，退休的，退役的

参考例句：

• The old man retired to the country for rest.这位老人下乡休息去了。
• Many retired people take up gardening as a hobby.许多退休的人都以从事园艺为嗜好。

12 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

13 slabs   

n.厚板，平板，厚片( slab的名词复数 )；厚胶片

参考例句：

• The patio was made of stone slabs. 这天井是用石板铺砌而成的。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The slabs of standing stone point roughly toward the invisible notch. 这些矗立的石块，大致指向那个看不见的缺口。 来自辞典例句

14 helping   

n.食物的一份&adj.帮助人的，辅助的

参考例句：

• The poor children regularly pony up for a second helping of my hamburger. 那些可怜的孩子们总是要求我把我的汉堡包再给他们一份。
• By doing this, they may at times be helping to restore competition. 这样一来, 他在某些时候,有助于竞争的加强。

15 corpse   

n.尸体，死尸

参考例句：

• What she saw was just an unfeeling corpse.她见到的只是一具全无感觉的尸体。
• The corpse was preserved from decay by embalming.尸体用香料涂抹以防腐烂。

16 interdict   

v.限制；禁止；n.正式禁止；禁令

参考例句：

• Troops could be ferried in to interdict drug shipments.可以把军队渡运过来阻截毒品的装运。
• Interdict could also be sought for the protection of public interests.禁令也可以用于保护公共利益。

17 scuba   

n.水中呼吸器

参考例句：

• I first got hooked on scuba diving when I was twelve.12岁时我开始迷上了带水中呼吸器潜水。
• While on honeymoon in Bali,she learned to scuba dive.她在巴厘岛度蜜月时学会了带水肺潜水。

18 maritime   

adj.海的，海事的，航海的，近海的，沿海的

参考例句：

• Many maritime people are fishermen.许多居于海滨的人是渔夫。
• The temperature change in winter is less in maritime areas.冬季沿海的温差较小。

19 apprehensions   

疑惧

参考例句：

• He stood in a mixture of desire and apprehensions. 他怀着渴望和恐惧交加的心情伫立着。
• But subsequent cases have removed many of these apprehensions. 然而，随后的案例又消除了许多类似的忧虑。

20 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。